Nobuie Question...?

[Brian]

Tim,

Excellent additions! Thanks for sharing and making this a good reference topic for these Nobuiye smiths.

 

Brian

[Soshin]

Hi Brian,

 

I agree Tim did a wonderful job of coming up with so many examples of the so called wide mei Nobuie. One observation I have made is that the NBTHK with both the old or the new papers don't attribute a early Nobuie tsuba to a specific generation such as the 1st or 2nd generation. Of the one NTHK(NPO) paper I have seen for a early Nobuie this was also the case. Does anyone have an example of a Nobuie tsuba attributed via shinsa by a major group (NBTHK, NTHK, or NTHK(NPO)) to a specific generation?

 

P.S. Here is a new photo that display the mei nicely on my tsuba. Enjoy...

[Tim Evans]

Tim,

Excellent additions! Thanks for sharing and making this a good reference topic for these Nobuiye smiths.

 

Brian

 

Thanks Brian,

 

An interesting signature variation that needs more research. I agree with Bob Haynes that some of the tsuba signed this way are very good and have some age to them, and so are worthy of study.

[Soshin]

Hi Everyone,

 

Not sure everyone reading this topic is aware of how the NBTHK views the wide mei Nobuie. They have always viewed them as gimei both historically and currently and will not issued them papers. This I think is a major obstacle that needs to be overcome for there to be more research in Japan. Not sure what the other organizations such as the NTHK and NTHK(NPO) view is on the so called wide mei Nobuie tsuba. Maybe major members of these other organizations that know English and are NMB members can reply.

[cabowen]

I have no idea what view the NTHK-NPO holds as I have never discussed this with them. Next time I have a chance, I will inquire.

[Soshin]

Hi Everyone,

 

I did some research back on my old notes from a few years back and here is more information I found in regards to the wide mei Nobuie from Steve W. and Rich T. These are direct quotes with Rich T. typos and all with absolutely no paraphrasing on my part.

 

Hi all, well I will pass on what I know or understand here, instead of going back to Steve's thread.

 

I know for certain the NTHK will not paper these tsuba. I am also 99% sure the NBTHK will not paper them. This is because there is just not enough data to support these mei as being legit. Pure and simple. There are quite a few of the Edo perdio Nubouie that will get a paper, Akasaka, Echizen and others, as their mei and work is very recognisable.

The classic Nobuie mei of the 1st and 2nd though are well documented. I do not believe that there is any body that considers a 3rd gen onwards to be legit.

 

There appears to be one in Akiyama's Nobuie-shu but the rubbing is hard to read. The top character looks all the world like Sada.

 

Perhaps if they were mumei, they would get Den Nobuie at shinsa but as it stands, I think they will continue to bounce, or at least be turned away at the door.

 

Rich's understanding here is pretty much the same as mine. Of course being papered as legitimate and actual legitimacy can be two different things. What do we mean by "legitimate"? Do we mean "made by either the shodai or nidai Nobuiye"? Do we mean an authentic Nobuiye workshop product? Or do we mean a tsuba genuinely of a certain period? Something else? I find it odd that, in rejecting these wide-mei "Nobuiye" tsuba as not being shodai or nidai Nobuiye, the papering bodies will then thrown them out with the baby, the bath water, and the kitchen sink as not being valid as what they are: early 17th-century work made by skilled tsubako who were clearly influenced by the "real" Nobuiye tsubako of the Momoyama Period.

 

Perhaps simply not knowing exactly who these "wide-mei" tsubako were creates enough uncertainty to make a policy of rejecting their work as valid. Maybe it's the lack of a firmly-established "mei standard" for these tsuba. Based on what I have seen of these guards, though, the connection to the shodai/nidai is clearly present in the workmanship, design, and motifs used. It's a bit ironic to see "Akasaka Nobuiye," "Owari Nobuiye," and "Echizen Nobuiye" getting papers when, to me, their work is both inferior to what I see in these wide-mei pieces (that Mosle example, especially) and clearly unrelated to the Momoyama masters. I realize that these other Nobuie tsubako (Akasaka, Owari, etc...) may be paper-worthy in their own right, but I can't help but find it curious that these wide-mei works are so readily rejected. Based on quality alone, certainly, there is no reason to do so.

[Soshin]

Hi Everyone,

 

I received a call from Bob Haynes yesterday morning while at work. I was happy to say I wasn't busy and could talk for a half hour. He thanked me for sending the nice photos of my tsuba to him. I sent him photos for six tsuba that I was suggested by Arnold F. to get his feedback about. Here is just what he had to say about the Nobuie tsuba taken from the notes I was able to write while talking to him. It is not perfect account as I am not a professional note taker but I tried my best to actively listen.

The Nobuie tsuba is a small one but looks very good and is the work of an early generation. The signature is a bit worn and the second character is not very clear but the iron, patina, workmanship, and composition are excellent all characteristic of Nobuie. He thinks based upon the attribution the NBTHK shinsa panel was thinking the tsuba was the work of either the 1st or 2nd generation Nobuie but he believes that there more than just two generations of early Nobuie.

The time period when my NBTHK Tokubetsu Kicho paper was issued (1967) was a good safe period. (He was able to tell me all of the names of the people on the NBTHK shinsa panel during 1967.)

He wants me to bring the Nobuie tsuba to the Tampa show next year as he will have a table at the show with Elliott Long and wants to see my Nobuie tsuba and the NBTHK paper. :D

[christianmalterre]

Hi David,

 

glad to read this!

it´s jbw very similar to what i´ve wrote you already in past

Great to hear Mr.R.H. did equally mention the Shodai and the Nidai here....

(do buy you the recomended book!!!!!!!!!!)

Christian

[Soshin]

Hi Christian,

 

Yes I would completely agree what Mr. Haynes had to say about the tsbua was very similar to what you sent me via PM. But it is always good to get more than one expert opinion. :D

 

Hi Everyone,

 

The book that Christian is referring to is Nobuiye Tsuba by Iida. Here is a link to Grey's website for more information about the book: http://www.japaneseswordbooksandtsuba.com/store/books/c199-nobuiye-tsuba-full-translation. I did some searching and determined that I have a full English translation of this book. The style of the translation is very good and reminds me of the work of Markus Sesko. Here is a link to his wonderful blog: http://markussesko.wordpress.com/. I purchased this English translation from Pete Klein back in 2011 after the Tampa show when he did a wonderful presentation about Nobuie tsuba. I remember him presenting a Nobuie tsuba with old 1960s dated Tokubetsu Kicho papers with the same attribution as my tsuba that went up for auction on Yahoo Japan Auctions (http://auctions.yahoo.co.jp/). I would say this show and presentation of Nobuie tsuba is what set the seed for me to acquire the current tsuba.

[Soshin]

Hi Everyone,

 

I came across this Nobuie tsuba on a Yahoo Japan auction: https://www.jauce.com/auction/r119589800. It looks basically like a wide mei version of my Nobuie tsuba. It also does not have a shinsa paper likely due to the views on the wide mei by the NTHK and NBTHK. A few friends of mine have communicated privately that my tsuba looks like the work of the nidai Nobuie but I am continuing my research.

 

P.S. Just a quick reminder my Nobuie tsuba will be on display at the upcoming Philly show next week (Oct. 17-19, 2014) at my table for more information please check out the following website: http://www.southeastshowsauctions.com/show-hours--admissions.html.