Nobuie Question...?

[Soshin]

Hi Everyone,

 

Just a quick question to our resident Nobuie experts what does the term (ato nobuie 後信家) mean in the context of a old NBTHK Tokubetsu Kicho paper dated 1967? I have never seen this type of attribution before. From my memory the tsuba looked liked it dated from Azuchi-Momoyama Period as I was able to examine it for over an hour back in May at a semi-local Japanese sword meeting. Sorry no photos of it but I was able to find this similar tsuba on a Japanese dealers website: http://www.seiyudo.com/tu-098144.htm. The NBTHK Hozon attribution is just to "Nobuei (信家)". Thanks in advance to any answers received.

[Pete Klein]

http://www.unicode.org/cgi-bin/GetUniha ... point=5f8c

 

Descendents. IOW's -- Godai or later work, not original Nobuie as the one in the link you posted.

[Soshin]

Hi Pete,

 

The Kanji (ato 後) does means late. I forgot to post that in the opening of my topic. After the nidai Nobuie there were different generations working in various areas: Joshu Nobuie, Kashu Nobuie, Akasaka Nobuie, and Owari Nobuie during the Edo Period. How do they correspond or relate to the Godai Nobuie or later generations? Or are they unrelated? How does this relate to the (ato nobuie 後信家) tsuba? To me the tsuba didn't look like the typical late Edo Period Nobuie tsuba you find out there on the internet. But then again I could be wrong but I have never seen one of these late Edo Period Nobuie tsuba papered by the NBTHK.

[Pete Klein]

Show me the tsuba and I will reply.

[Soshin]

Hi Pete,

 

I have already agreed to purchase this tsuba. Once I own it I will take nice photos of it including clear photos of the mei. You will be one of the first persons I share the photos with.

[Soshin]

Hi Pete,

 

I am now the own of the tsuba. It is the most expensive tsuba I have ever purchased. Need to wait until the former owner gets back from Summer vacation to ship it to me. Was looking at the scan of the NBTHK Tokubetsu Kicho paper again and I think it says "mei Nobuie 銘信家" in the attribution line. This would be consistent with the NBTHK Hozon example I linked to and any other papered Nobuie example I have seen. The basis of my reading is on the shape of the left most radical in the Kanji 銘 which is itself a Kanji 金. Which is the same left most radical for the Kanji 鉄 which is in the line to the right of the attribution. This left radical is very different than the one used in the Kanji 後. This left radical is itself also a Kanji 彳. Here is a partial scan of the NBTHK Tokubetsu Kicho paper to show what I am talking about.

[MauroP]

Hi David, in my opinion the paper say just "mei Nobuie".

Bye, Mauro

[Soshin]

Hi Mauro,

 

Good to see we agree. I hope my explaination I wrote last night made sense. The writing style makes it harder to read then the modern certificates issued by the NBTHK. This tsuba has never been resubmitted to the NBTHK.

[Henry Wilson]

Hi David

 

I think your analyses makes perfect sense. As you point out, the 金 radical has been highly stylized in the two kaniji you refer to making it hard to decipher. I have asked my wife (who is Japanese) and she agrees it is probably 銘 as opposed to 後.

[Soshin]

Hi Henry W.,

 

Thanks for the reply. I need to correct something in my original post the NBTHK Tokubetsu Kicho paper is dated the 4th day of the 11th month in the 42rd year of the Showa Period which is 1969. This is because the Showa Period began on December 25, 1926 if I did my math correctly. Has the study and understanding of Nobuie developed any since the late 1960s? I would venture to answer no since signature style categories used for recognizing works of the Shodai and Nidai was first developed by Akiyama Kyusaku circa 1926. Here is a quote from Robert E. Haynes and Elliott D. Long website that discusses this (http://www.shibuiswords.com/tsuba.htm).

 

Thus far there has been mention of only one tsuba Nobuiye. We know through the rubbings of Nobuiye tsuba (seen in Nobuiye Tsuba Shu, 1926) that there are several distinct styles of signatures to be found on the many Nobuiye tsuba. These various styles were classified at great length by Akiyama. Though it would seem that several men with the same name might have made Nobuiye tsuba it can be stated that these various signatures should be grouped into two styles, thus giving us only two tsuba Nobuiye, a first and second generation. It is not difficult to distinguish between them. The first generation may be termed Gamei (elegant signature), this being the style called 'hanare' by Akiyama. This style is gentle, slight, and tasteful. It shows the quiet nobility of the subjects used in his decorations. The second generation which Akiyama called 'futoji-mei', 'katchu-mei', 'sakei-mei', and 'sumari-mei' are all the signature of this one generation. This style of signature may be called 'Chikara-mei' (mighty signature). It shows the strong,bold style seen in the thick plate and forceful carving. It can not be stated with any certainty what the exact relationship was between these two artists. It is possible that they were father and son, son-in-law, or brothers. In any event they seem to have been closely related. From the evidence, based on the style and subjects used, we have placed the working period of the first Nobuiye in the Momoyama age, from the Kiroku era to the Keicho era (1558-1614). The working time of the second generation is about the Tensho era to the Kanei era (1573-1643).

 

P.S. Once I get the tsuba next week I will post a number of good quality photos of it.

[Soshin]

Hi Everyone,

 

I have the Nobuie tsuba now. The iron is much better than even I remember from the meeting back in May. I will post some nice photos over the weekend either on Saturday or Sunday. Time to do some research now.

[Soshin]

Hi Everyone,

 

I was able to do some nice photos of the Nobuie tsuba this morning. Here are two photos once I update my website I will have many more all at higher resolution for everyone to see. The design done in very fine line carving (kebori 毛彫) is of a Japanese gourds along a finely carved arabesque pattern of vines and leaves. The gourd in Japanese is hyōtan an example is provided below. There is also a very nice (amida-yasurime 阿弥陀鑢目) filemark pattern very finely done overtop of the major design. The raised and turned up rim (uchikaeshi-mimi 打返耳) has a nice kikkō pattern along with the many iron bones. The second photo a rim view I think is the best view of signature which isn't very clear in my opinion. The signature was judged once as shoshin in 1969 by the NBTHK while is the collection of Mr. Saitō which is just fine for me needless to say I am not going to resubmitting this tsuba as I collect tosogu and not papers with Japanese written on it.

The surface of the tsuba along with the rim display many large tekkotsu and a ceramic glaze like glossiness to the iron which is extraordinarily making me think yakita-shitate was applied to the surface. The measurements of this tsuba is 6.7 cm high by 6.2 cm wide. The approximate thickness at the seppa-dai is 2.5 mm and the rim thickness is 5.0 mm. The iron feels great in hand and is comparable to other early Nobuie examples I have examined in hand at a NBTHK lecture in 2011.

 

P.S. This tsuba marks a milestone for me which I will use as a chance to branch off an explore other areas of tosogu besides old iron tsuba.

[Brian]

Congrats David, I think that is a beautiful tsuba. Definitely a step up.

 

Brian

[Steve Waszak]

Nice guard, David. These wide-mei Nobuiye are a fascinating subset of Nobuiye tsuba. In the Haynes catalogue #7, tsuba #37, in particular, appears to be similar to yours in several ways (details of metal work, mei, sugata, etc...). I trust you've seen the wide-mei Nobuiye in Haynes' Gai So Shi as well? It seems there may have been more than one craftsman who made these (based on variances in the mei, anyway), but they aren't very commonly encountered. I hope you'll provide more photos, including of the ura. Good acquisition, David.

 

Cheers,

 

Steve

[Soshin]

Hi Steve and Brian,

 

Thanks for the replies. Steve, thanks for the additional information. I did run across the wide mei Nobuie discussed by Robert E. Haynes in his book Gai So Shi. My tsuba mei doesn't seem as wide as his example and the spacing of the mei is similar to a Nobuie tsuba in the Japanese book Sukashi Tsuba: Swordguards with Openwork Designs page 65 exhibit #97 in terms of Kanji character distance which might just be another example of the wide mei Nobuie. I have not looked at all of my many references as I still researching my new tsuba. Anyone if my tsuba has been previously published please let me know. Below are photos of ura as requested by Steve. I have also included for fun a photo of the raised rim with a few of the iron bones and the kikkō pattern I was talking about. Enjoy and discussion is welcome.

 

P.S. Fix some relatively minor set of typo and mistakes in my original post today about the Nobuie tsuba.

[cabowen]

DIdn't someone else post a similar Nobuie here a while back? Henry maybe?

[Soshin]

DIdn't someone else post a similar Nobuie here a while back? Henry maybe?

 

Hi Chris,

 

Similar is what respects? Henry W. did post a very nice Nobuie tsuba a while back in July 2013. Here is the link to that discussion: http://www.militaria.co.za/nmb/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=16279&start=0&st=0&sk=t&sd=a&hilit=nobuie. The tsuba was later published in the 2013 Kokusai Tosogu Kai (KTK) catalogue. I was a bit disappointed by the single small photo of the tsuba in the catalogue on page 30.

[cabowen]

DIdn't someone else post a similar Nobuie here a while back? Henry maybe?

 

Hi Chris,

 

Similar is what respects?

 

Kebori looks similar...

[Soshin]

Hi Chris,

 

The kebori on my tsuba and Henry's is characteristic of all early Nobuie tsuba that have this type of line carving. It is generally shallow and very fine in width compared to kebori used later by other schools. Here is a good example of what I am talking about: http://blog.goo.ne.jp/tsuba_001/e/eabffb891e71dfa60a977206d088d10d.

 

Hi Steve,

 

I found this Nobuie tsuba while search the internet using Google. I think it has a wide signature: http://yakiba.com/Tsuba_Nobuie.htm.

[Steve Waszak]

Hi David,

 

I used to own that tsuba. It is indeed a wide-mei piece, though I do not think it is the same mei as is found on your tsuba.

 

Cheers,

 

Steve

[Soshin]

Hi Steve,

 

I hope you are enjoying the SF show. I hope to make it next year and I can show you this tsuba in person. Thank for the information. In my research so far I have came across two classification of the Nobuie mei by the distance between the two Kanji characters which is variable. When the spacing between characters is wide the term "kabuto-mei" is used and when the spacing is narrow the term "tsuba-mei" is used to classifity the signature. My tsuba mei would be classified as "kabuto-mei".

[Soshin]

Hi Everyone,

 

Found two more "wide mei" Nobuie tsuba both like the previous example but very different then my tsuba. Would like to see the Haynes Auction Catalogs cited by Steve above for reference.

 

Example #1 http://www.shibuiswords.com/nobuie6.htm

 

Example #2 http://www.shibuiswords.com/haynesTsu76.html

[Soshin]

Hi Everyone,

 

Was contacted today my a longtime collector of a early Nobuie tsuba today. He has been following the my topic with interest and agrees with the authenticity of my most recent purchase as a early Nobuie. He said that in my last post by comparing the two examples I found on the internet with my tsuba was bit like comparing chalk and chinese. As he felt my tsuba was so much better in comparison in terms of the iron,tsuchime and jimon. The Nobuie mei is also very different as well. I also came across another papered Nobuie on a Japanese dealer's website (http://www.tsuruginoya.com/mn1_3/f00203.html). The rim pattern is like my tsuba and is of kikkō (turtle shell pattern). Enjoy.

[Soshin]

Hi Everyone,

 

One small correction I would like to add. The date on the NBTHK Tokubetsu Kicho paper is Showa 42 which is 1967. I found a date calculator online here (http://www.sljfaq.org/cgi/date.cgi) that was helpful. I also found this papered Nobuie tsuba selling online at a Japanese dealers website: http://www.tsuruginoya.com/mn1_3/f00203.html. The rim is very similar to my tsuba.

[seattle1]

Hello David:

It would be very interesting if you were to send good front and back photographs (he is not on the net) to Bob Haynes and ask his opinion of your new Nobuiye, and then let us know his response.

Arnold F.

[Soshin]

Hi Arnold F.,

 

Thanks for the reply. Received somemore positive feedback from other senior collectors via email. I have another photo I did yesterday not on my website. I will upload it this weekend. Which photos on the website do you think I should get professional prints of to send to Mr. Haynes? Also if you have his mailing address please send it to me via PM.

[seattle1]

Hello David:

I'll do both by PM later this weekend when I have a moment.

Arnold F.

[Tim Evans]

Other wide signature examples for study.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Tim Evans]

 

[Soshin]

Hi Tim,

 

Thanks for uploading your data archive. From a quick review of the signature examples provided my Nobiue tsuba is not a wide signature example. I had some positive feedback via PM from other people about this tsuba not sure if I should share since it came from PMs and emails. I mailed photos of it and few others to Bob Haynes on Saturday. I will post a reply if I get one. Here is another online reference for a Nobuie tsuba.

 

http://www.iidakoendo.com/info/item/b109.htm