Puzzling Katana

CurtisR · June 22, 2014

Hi Nathan,

Thanks for the comment on the blade - I'm very curious about it and still studying it (until shinsa comes, no doubt ha-ha). I wish it DID have decent mountings but as Marius re-stated, they were absolutely cobbled together. No tsuba at all, and the f/k with splotches of paint which appear to make some sort of pattern, but at least the mostly saya fits (although again, obviously re-shaped to fit the blade and paint splotches). It DOES have what looks to be an older, heavy & well-fitted copper habaki which I'll have saved in the shirasaya. It will be a month or two before I can get it to Mr. Tirado, but really look forward to that,

Anyway, if I do find more info. about it I'll post it here for sure. Just shows that you never know what old duffers (he golfs better than I, however!) have laying in their garage (for a very decent price no less)

I just got lucky but I'll take luck ANY day!

Cheers all ~

Curtis R.

Nathansan · June 23, 2014

Curtis:

I had no idea just how cobbled together it was (LOL). Please keep us posted - I would love to see the blade in full polish !!

Respects

Nathan

nagamaki - Franco · June 23, 2014

Be aware that the correct order to follow is foundation polish, habaki, then shirasaya, final polish. Otherwise you might find yourself having to repeat steps.

Marius · June 23, 2014

I bet that no foundation polish is needed on this blade. It looks very healthy and in old polish, with just speckles of rust, but of course it is always the polisher who decides what to do.

And yes, the order is correct :-)

CurtisR · July 3, 2014

Just a quick follow-up on this one...I've been comparing hamon and find that the one on my sword is very similar to those of the Shikkake school ---- I just found this similarity tonight while doing soem research, but it's very similar, as well as to the hamon shown here: http://www.militaria.co.za/nmb/viewtopic.php?f=15&t=19338&p=173751&hilit=muromachi#p173751 ~~

I'm not well-versed enough to have the blade in front of me and to tell the difference between them, btu they're similar .

I also re-read my post and sorry if I confused anyone...the blade came from friend in West Virginia who I was in the 82nd Airborne with about 30 yrs. ago. Just asked him if he'd seen any swords around and he said "yep - one"...it'd been kept in a fishing rod tube for years in a house "way back in the woods", given to my buddy by HIS friend, who's Dad got it from a guy who'd been in the USMC Pacific theater during WWII. Very odd where they show up - taught me that it never hurts to ask, either . Wish I knew more of the story on how it came to the states, but the original Vet has passed on.

I'm also glad it was in the tube vs. the humidity of the W. VA mountains for all those years! Anyway, I'm still studying it until I send it off for shirasaya in a month or two. If I learn anything else I'll certainly post!

Cheers,

Curtis R.

Darcy · July 25, 2014

I think in general the guidance towards Muromachi or Shinto is about right. I'm not so sure about Shikkake, in truth with Yamato blades the variation is great so when looking at hamon you can almost always find one that will look like something else (from Yamashiro confusable to Bizen confusable to Soshu confusable, in terms of hamon only Yamato embraces a wide style of patterns).

There is a difference in these hi with the ones I am familiar with from older Soshu works. The layout is different, these hi are a bit more shallow with a gap between them. Those I know from the Juyo works (examples below) are deeper and fill the space.

There is usually a keen understanding of geometry and the use of space in top grade horimono that is similar to composition in painting and photography. Relative placement of elements is generally done with balance and sophistication, So to my eye these are a bit more awkward with the wide gap between the two which and as a result I think it grades out less than top grade.

It's hard to get a handle on the hamon, and hada but I'm kinda getting the Soshu-like feeling that would lead me to Shimada. Or maybe it is Shinto Echizenyesque. But that is a guess that is nothing more than throwing a dart at the dartboard. I agree that it should be followed up and presented to shinsa of some sort.

The following photos illustrate what I'm talking about in terms of the use of space. The effect then is a bit more striking when there is better balance between the parallel hi and the space in which they reside.

The two examples are a bit different, the Norishige, the hi are a bit more narrow. They seem to occupy a ratios

upper border: 1

hi: 2

middle border: 1

hi: 2

lower border: 0

The Shizu fills the space more with the hi. Looks more like:

upper border: 1

hi: 4

middle border: 1

hi: 4

lower border: 0

In the upper of yours the hi seem to be a bit different widths, but if I eyeball it on the lower, the ratios look like:

upper border: 1

hi: 1

middle border: 2

hi: 1

lower border 0

And that's what makes it look a bit awkward to me.

Examples....

High res on Juyo Shizu with futasuji-bi, look especially near the machi as the contrast there reveals the narrow border areas:

This is good for viewing it in detail: http://www.nihonto.ca/shizu-3/sugata-l.jpg

Layout image:

Norishige high res, shot this ages ago:

http://www.nihonto.ca/norishige/page-l.jpg

CurtisR · July 29, 2014

Very interesting analysis Darcy - thank you for looking into it with such detail (seems like you've run into this at an earlier date as well ) ...so far it has been very hard to pin down a maker, but it's a lot of fun & I'm learning a lot by getting opinions and in doing my own comparisons.

I will look up the work of Shimada-san ...it's a place to start and compare! A very well-respected person in the sword world told me that he believes it is o-suriage, and has many attributes that point toward muromachi (clearly a koto blade, and as I look at his examples I see them...progress! lol) - As I find more info. I'll certainly post, and anyone with a (reasonable) opinion please feel free to comment.

Sadly it looks as though I can't get it to Shinsa until 2016 and am NOT sending off to Japan to go through the hassels it demands.

Thanks again and more to follow!

Curtis R.

CurtisR · July 29, 2014

As a side-note, it seems to be important if the hi stop before the yokote, or continue into it, as the example you've posted does. Apparently (from my readings) it's less common for them to end before the yokote and indicates the age and possibly the school. Hmmmmm....gotta love a mystery!

Curtis R.

cabowen · July 29, 2014

Note the crispness of the nakago, the mekugi-ana, the hi in the nakago. The sabi is thin.

Also note that the hi continue through the nakago jiri in a perfectly symmetrical way, like they were made that way. :lol:

If the sword was suriage, it would have to have been o-suriage, meaning the most of the original nakago was removed. That would make the blade's original nagasa perhaps 5 sun longer. Wouldn't this would mean it would have had strong saki-sori in order for it to now have tori-zori? And the hi would most likely not have ended up perfectly symmetrical through the new nakago. It is also likely that the hamon wouldn't end the way it does.

I think it is quite reasonable, from what can be seen in the photos, to judge the sword as ubu. I also think it is quite reasonable, based on the crispness of the nakago, as well as the shape, hamon, and hada, to date the sword to later Shinto or shinshinto.

Keep us posted Curtis....

Darcy · August 4, 2014

I think I saw this blade. Curtis, did you show it to Ted?

The jigane past the rust looked pretty fine.

If this was indeed it, in the hand I thought Sue-Sa. It looked like a good blade and I think restoration and papering was in order. Horimono still quirky.

Jean · August 4, 2014

Curtis wrote :

I will look up the work of Shimada-san

Btw, Curtis, Shimada was a school and not a smith, active in Muromachi, in the province of Suruga (leading smiths Yoshisuke aka Gisuke, Sukemune...). It was closely linked to Odawara Soshu (sue Soshu- leading smiths: Tsunahiro, Fusamune, Hiromasa, Masahiro ....)

seattle1 · August 4, 2014

Hello:

I believe that it can be too casually dismissed that the blade might not be either o-suriage or that it has had a mei removed. I continue to be spooked by such chances in situations like this after having read, multiple times, Nobuo Nakahara. Facts and Fundamentals of Japanese Swords: A Collector's Guide, trans. by Paul Martin (Kodansha International. 2000). The blade looks too nice overall not to have been signed.

Arnold F.

cabowen · August 4, 2014

Hello:
I believe that it can be too casually dismissed that the blade might not be either o-suriage or that it has had a mei removed. I continue to be spooked by such chances in situations like this after having read, multiple times, Nobuo Nakahara. Facts and Fundamentals of Japanese Swords: A Collector's Guide, trans. by Paul Martin (Kodansha International. 2000). The blade looks too nice overall not to have been signed.

Arnold F.

I agree but thought I had provided more than a casual explanation in support of why it may be ubu....I suppose this is where shinsa is invaluable....

CurtisR · August 4, 2014

Thank you gentleman, it seems that this one IS a mystery...it has not been shown to anyone, no ....it just came to me from W. VA a couple of months ago, so not sure which sword had been seen at an earlier date but not this one.

It's currently with the saya-shi, who is sure the blade is Muromachi, and probably o-suriage. Either way, it neds the shirasaya :D . If I get additional from him (saya-shi), I will absolutely post it!

Best,

Curtis R.

CurtisR · August 4, 2014

Also - thank you Jean....I will certainly look into the work of the Shimada school! Many thanks

C.

echizento · August 5, 2014

Looks like a very nice blade, I would agree late Koto to early Shinto.

CurtisR · August 5, 2014

It IS a nice blade..I will submit to Shinsa without a doubt, so their answer should be interesting.....I can see Chris' point when holding the blade, but if o-suriage, it was very well done and at lease 2 people familiar with Nihonto agree it's o-suriage. One this IS certain, and that is that it's one of the shapest blades I've dealt with (out of 40 or 50 now) and jut beautifully balanced.

It has been pondered by one friend - I will leave the name out here - that it may be the Honjo Masamune . I doubt this seriously - I've read up on the missing blade and mine seems to be missing several specifics, althought the length, etc. is correct (and it even "sort of" fits the oshigata that still exists) so I guess, who knows? lol.

If so, hopefully the Shinsa team will let me know .

I'll post more as I learn of itl and sincere thanks to the Board!

Curtis R.

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