Puzzling Katana

[CurtisR]

Hello all ~

I've acquired this katana - mumei - that is making me scratch my head a bit. As I said, it's mumei but appears to be hice work, pretty hada (sorry - no macro to show this as yet) and what appears as an ito-sugaha hamon.

 

The saya seems to fit the blade fine, but the rest of the koshirae is pieced together from a WWII NCO's tsuba but with a standard tsuka core, decently made menuki in the form of Salmon (?) and iron f/k that are quite plain although someone tried to paint them a bit with gold paint. My word would be "cobbled together".

 

My real question revolves around the blade. It is 26 3.4" length with Futasuji-hi, even on both sides and running all of the way through the nakago which has a classic kurijiri shape. The nakago has a nice, even patina and leads me to believe it was forged perhaps the in the late 1800's /early 1900's (as does the wear on the scabbard. the blade shows a bit of pitting but is otherwise sold).

 

My question is this: am I seeing the proper age based on patina, or is it older? I can imagine it was sold after WWII, after being "cobbled", but seems to have a nice blade regardless. Should I run or see if I can get it at a low/decent price? I think it could make a nice Iai blade AND I've not seen the Futasuji-hi before.

 

Comments, rants, etc. are - as always - welcome!

 

Many thanks,

 

Curtis R.

[Marius]

Curtis,

 

trying to determine a sword's age by sugata only is fraught with risk. An even, smooth patina is just good patina. Rust and dimples proove nothing.

 

Based on the looks, I'd say:

A late Muromachi/early Edo uchigata, machi okuri.

 

I won't venture to guess the school, but based on what seems jizo-boshi, perhaps sue-Seki?

 

Looks beefy, what is the kasane? Do I see correctly that the nakago mune is maru? That would point to Uda (if I got the period right, that is).

 

Having said all this: I won't be suprised if this turns out to be shinshinto :-)

Such is an attribution based on (sorry - low quality) pictures...

[Brian]

Well cut hi are often a good sign. I know I am partial to nice hi going through the nakago. Well worth having this one looked at closer. I don't think this one is junk...think it looks like it has some promise.

 

Brian

[cabowen]

I agree with Brian- this one has potential.

 

Judging by the way the hamon ends, I think it is ubu/mumei. I would say possibly koto. Meguki-ana placement seems low for a later katana.

[Marius]

Chris, I see it ending just above the sabi giwa, hence my thought about machi okuri. But I might be wrong, of course, with the quality of the pics...

[Brian]

Btw, that looks far from an ito suguha hamon to me. Once you have seen true ito suguha (early Naminohira etc) then you know why they call it that. This looks to have plenty of width to the hamon.

 

Brian

[Marius]

I agree, Brian. Looks like (ko)gunome.

[CurtisR]

Thank you gentlemen! I got the feeling, just holding it and having it in-hand that it was a decent blade. No cracks or chips by the way. I don't care about the koshirae, but it did throw me a bit . Even being mumei it felt "right", if that makes sense?

 

I apologize for the poor pics and will upload better ones within a day or so. I suspect I might get this one "for a song" (and I sing reeeealy poorly btw) but will know in the next day or so. Perhaps once better pics are up (and I do a bit more reading) I'll be able to find the school.

 

Mariuszk Sir, you nailed the mune being Maru, and it IS beefy! I'm off to see the owner to see if I can keep this one out of the big plastic tub he has his swords piled (read: "thrown in to).

 

More to come and again, many thanks!

 

Curtis R

[Marius]

Looking forward to seeing more, Curtis :-)

[Geraint]

And just imagine how it would look with the yokote back in the right place.

 

All the best.

[CurtisR]

Wow - sounds like I have a potentially decent blade here - thanks everyone. And yes, I was using "Facts & Fundamentals of Japanese Swords" to judge the hamon, so plenty of room for error on MY part!

 

I'm going to set up well and use my Nikon for the new pics tonight or tomorrow, so that should help a LOT. ALso just for documentation purposes. I'll throw in a few of the koshirae as well to give you and idea of the "cobbled" statement. Also, one of the things that "hit me" when i first examined it was that the hi were cut well and true, and didn't appear to be done to hide flaws, etc.

 

Stand by just for a pit please, and I am getting the feeing that I'm going to learn a LOT from this one!

 

Sincere Regards,

 

Curtis R.

[CurtisR]

Well, The blade is a keeper (or I am it's current steward, anyhow ). I've been taking some pics with a tripod and Nikon and will post them tonight and tomorrow here unless Admin would like them somewhere else of course. The issue I'm dealing with immediately are the small areas of black rust alonf the blde

 

 

 

There was just something about it. The mi is un-nicked, which from what I've seen is rare. I have two other Nihonto & both are signed - I'd really appreciate help - after the pics are up of course - that might hint and lead me to ID-ing the correct school, as it is mumei.

The Tsuka was coming unwrapped I ended up with two very cool iron (and well-made) little "twin barracuda (?)".

 

Lots of study to do with this one but from all of the good comments (and the condition of the sword), it might end up being a good one for Shinsa even w / out a smith's mei. It will require new koshirae OR shirasaya, but don't think I'll have the $ to do so soon. Story of my life ,

 

Hoping you all won't mind if I post 8 or so pics.......

 

Sincerely,

 

Curtis R.

[Brian]

Mumei are great for shinsa, because there is no chance of gimei, so it should pass and give you a smith or school.

I would definitely submit this one if there are no significant flaws.

Uchiko it....should bring out some more of the hamon. This is where uchiko is really useful, not on newly polished swords.

 

Brian

[CurtisR]

Thank you Brian, I was going to ask about whether shinsa would be good for it or not. As you say, there's no argument as to smith so it should do fine :D . I've used a bit of uchicoand am working it slooooowly, but so far, NO major flaws!

 

Photos later this afternoon, and then you can re-issue an opinion. I'd be excited to see how it did at Shinsa, but don't know 1) which group to join of the two most noted and 2) when the next shinsa would be for either.

 

If anyone has an opinion here, I'd very much like to hear it. Sounds like it's time to join. I know Mr. Bowen is the "Jefe" for one here in the US and have hear good things about it but - well - politics abound and are the only true perpetual motion machine I've found .

 

NOT trying to start an argument - just wondering about success and usefulness at a novice collector's level ~~

 

Curtis R.

[Brian]

Any of the US shinsas would be your best bet right now, given limited funds and an out of polish blade.

But don't know when the next one is, and no rush anyways. Enjoy it as is for now. I would have it put into shirasaya.

 

Brian

[CurtisR]

Greetings! I apologize for the delay...here are what I hope are better photos, or ones good enough that perhaps a school or smith can be guessed at? I know the initial thought is Koto, Kanefusa (nidei?)

 

I have also done the requested measurements:

 

The Nagasa is approx. 26 3/4"

The Width at the Munemachi is: 28mm

Width of the nakago is 25mm / thickness of Nakafo is 7mm.

THICKNESS at muromachi is 8mm / mid-blade the thickness is 8mm.

Thicknesss just behind the kissaki is 6mm. I do not yet know enough about hada to name it, but perhaps it will be clear in the pictures.

 

Y'all were correct in saying that the hamon looks like (ko) Gunome, and has much more "room" on it than it first seemed, although it does have the very cleanly cut Futasuji-hi.

As for the Kasane, it is very slightly rounded but I guess more "flat" than rounded.

 

So - here come the pics...any thoughts are appreciated!

 

Curtis R.

[CurtisR]

These should wrap it up, pending any requests of course :D .

 

Curtis R

[Marius]

Curtis,

 

that is one beefy and healthy sword Like it has never been polished. Definitely worth a shinsa.

 

Judging by your most recent pics and the color of the patina, plus the beefiness of the blade, I would say it is at least shinshinto if not newer. Looked like koto to me in your earlier pics, but not anymore. Well, that's judging by photographs...

 

Hada is impossible to discern in your pics and this state of polish.

 

The menuki looks low-grade.

 

Oh, it is munemachi, not Muromachi The expression for thickness is kasane, oro motogasane/sakigasane.

 

And what you described as "Kasane" is the nakago mune (I presume) :lol:

 

Nice blade.

[george trotter]

Curtis san,

I like the look of your sword. Good quality Horimono, nice shape, nice hamon and nakago.

Just thinking out loud but looking at the overall blade and its length of 26 " or so and the chu kissaki, and the neat nakago with one original ana, I think the blade is ubu and call me a gunto-centric, but to me it has a look of probably a gunto made between late Meiji-early Showa sort of period.

About the nakago, the nakago does not look to have much age to me and the presence of yaki-komi on one side of the blade (where the hamon jumps over the ha-machi), suggests it has never been shortened...it also is possible that the blade got too hot at the machi during yaki-ire (hence the yaki-komi) and maybe that is why he did not sign it? Even with that possible fault (it doesn't bother me), the work is overall good IMHO.

Having said all that, just remember I am often wrong, so I think the advice you have received is good...it certainly looks worth it to take it to shinsa, we'd be interested to know who/when it turns out to be.

Regards,

[CurtisR]

Dear Mariuszk and George,

 

Thanks very much for the clarification and added info. on my mumei blade. ~~ the more I examine it in comparison to your comments, they're dead on to something...cool eh? lol)

I believe - after re-reading everyone's comments, and after looking at the options, I'm now debating on putting the blade into Shirasaya, or to go full-on with koshirae?

 

I know folks who make beautiful versions of both...the koshirae will obviously cost more, but I plan on keeping it a long tine so the cost will even out over time.

 

Next step is to get w/ M. Bowen and become a member . THEN to Shinsa (regardless), and hopefully figure out more concerning school or maker.

 

Many thanks everyone and feel free to PM me or to post your possibilities or thoughts!! I'd also be happy to take any photos that might help or that you're curious about.

 

Sincere Regards,

 

Curt

[Marius]

Curtis,

 

If I may suggest - do yourself and the sword a favour and have a shirasaya made.

[Grey Doffin]

And do yourself another favor and don't have koshirae made for your sword. This almost never makes sense financially; for what you would have to pay you can buy a traditionally mounted Samurai sword. When the time comes to sell (and it always does) you'll be lucky to get half what you put into it back.

Grey

[Marius]

Curtis,

 

I have forgotten to say what Grey has said, but it was implied. Truly good koshirae will cost you $,$$$. And the result might be far from satifying even with that money. Plus, it will never be original.

[CurtisR]

Well said gentlemen - Shirasaya (and Shisa) it shall be!

 

Curtis R.

[CurtisR]

And Marius, I talked to John Tirado this morning...he's done a couple of Shirasaya for me and I compelyely agree it needs it. We're getting it all aarranged. The more I examine the blade, the more subtitles I fing. I will send to shinsa for sure :D .

 

Sincerely,

 

Curtis R.

[Marius]

Curtis,

 

You have chosen a great specialist. We are looking forward to seeing the results of shinsa :-)

[Stephen]

C

you did very well, and as pointed out your on the right track, well done.

[CurtisR]

Many thanks to all! John T. has done 2 shirasaya for me in the past & he's amazing!

As soon as I learn anything from Shinsa (supposedly not until 2016?) I will be very happy to pass the info. along!!

 

thank you all for your wisdom and encouragement!

 

Curtis R.

[Nathansan]

Curtis:

Lovely blade ! By all means have a shira saya made for it,but try to save the original mounts and saya. Keep in mind a sword during its lifetime

can be and often was remounted many times . In my opinion as long as you can salvage tsuba ,fuchi ,kashira and whatever other parts then do so.

There is nothing nicer than having a freshly polished blade in shira saya and a functional set of mounts as well.

Respects

Nathan Young

[Marius]

Nathan,

 

as Curtis has said, the mountings are "cobbled together".