Which camera lens to buy?

[hxv]

Greetings,

 

I have a Canon Rebel XTI with a Canon EFS 17-85mm and a cheap clip-on macro lens. I have gotten a lot of use out of this camera for years and years. The EFS 17-85mm lens finally partially died. It won't auto-focus anymore, and I am absolutely terrible at focusing a camera. So, I am looking for a replacement. I have done a bit of reading on the web, and the Canon EFS 10-22mm seems like a good lens for sword/tsuba. Supposedly, it has very little spherical aberration, wide angle, and short focal length - great for close ups. I can probably get a used one on local Craigslist for $350-$400 if I wait long enough.

 

Questions for the local resident photography experts:

1. Which lens would you recommend?

2. Has anyone had any experience with the Canon EFS 10-22mm?

3. Is there a lens with good performance and low cost/performance ratio?

 

Any comment unrelated to the above questions are very welcome, too. I am looking for advice and have not yet decided on a lens to purchase.

 

Regards,

Hoanh

[Uechi]

Can't speak for camera models except to state the higher the digital resolution the better. As for tsuba, fuchi etc consider a color computer flatbed printer/scanner. You will get quite good results using the scanner and will actually get good results with nihonto but with only portions of the blade at a time.

 

 

JDromm

[Veli]

Just a general comment: I would make a compromise in terms of lens aperture, since large aperture (small minimum f-number) lenses are usually more expensive. When photographing blades or fittings, you usually aim at large depth of field, and that requires a rather large f-number anyway. To put it in simple terms, why pay double for a f/2.8 lens when you usually use a f/10 aperture... a decent f/5.6 will do fine... You can get e,g, a Sigma wide angle lens with a slightly larger f-number cheaper than the Canon.

 

Just my 2c...

 

BR,

 

Veli

[Ken-Hawaii]

Hoanh, you probably don't want the EFS 10-22 lens as your primary one for shooting swords & tosogu. It has a fairly small DOF (depth of field) even at a high f-stop. A lens like a 80 or 100 mm macro is probably your best bet as they are made to shoot up close with no field aberration. Just remember that your camera will multiply the lens by 1.6, so if you plan to shoot larger items, consider shorter focal lengths.

 

This article http://www.cameralabs.com/lenses/lens_buyers_guide/Canon_EF_lenses/Which_close-up_lens/Which_Canon_macro_close-up_flower_insect_lens.shtml may give you some helpful hints. You'll notice that all of these are prime, rather than zoom, lenses.

 

Ken

[Loco Al]

I agree with Ken. The EFS 10 - 20 is a wide angle lens. Too wide for what you want to accomplish.

 

If you want a great sharp lens that you can also take close-up detail photos with, then I would recommend the Canon EF 100mm f/2.8 USM Macro. It can also be used for portrait photography, or as a general 100mm lens for super sharp photos. If you want to photograph the whole sword with it you just back up a bit. Presumably you will be using a tripod, so you wont need to buy it's more expensive brother that has image stabilization.

 

You can get a brand new Canon EF 100mm f/2.8 USM Macro on Amazon for about $550 after rebate. Probably much less for a used one. It's a true macro lens, so you can take photos like this one as well:

 

 

Alan

[Ken-Hawaii]

Nice shot, Alan.

 

Ken

[Gabriel L]

Hoanh,

 

I have a number of lenses, including the following which are germane to this discussion:

 

• EF-S 10-22mm
  
• EF-S 18-55mm II
  
• EF-S 60mm f/2.8 1:1 Macro
  
• Sigma 150mm f/2.8 1:1 Macro

 

I love the Canon 10-22mm, but certainly not for closeup photography (e.g. swords). For one thing, it's maximum magnification is a mere 0.17x; good for a superwide and certainly enough for architecture and landscape photography, as well as special effects (superwide perspective distortion), but not quite enough for high-res closeups. Don't confuse short focal length with a short focusing distance, they are entirely different concepts. Also, at such a wide FOV, the tiniest error in perspective creates significant distortion; on an APS-C sensor, something around 35mm is going to give a much more neutral rendition for an overall view. FYI, at 22mm, getting a whole katana in-frame requires about 4 feet of distance; you certainly do not want to shoot lower than that as perspective will begin creating significant distortions.

 

In contrast, the dirt-cheap Canon EF-S 18-55mm f/3.5-5.6 IS II (only $200) may be the best value lens for the money there is… and crucially for this application, its maximum magnification is 0.24x, which is not bad for a non-macro lens. However if I were getting an all-around lens, I'd look at one of the higher-grade options, especially with a bigger aperture.

 

For true closeups, a true 1:1 (1.0x) magnification macro is where it's at. I have two dedicated macro lenses, and for you I cannot recommend the Canon EF-S 60mm f/2.8 USM enough. It's small, light, fast (big aperture), extraordinarily sharp, zero spherical abberation, great for headshots & product photography, not so long that it can't shoot a whole sword (with a lot of distance), etc. It's just an all-around wonderful lens. When I got it it was only $350; now it's around $470, which is a bit more expensive, but still a good deal for a lens of this quality. The only shortcoming is that 60mm requires too close a working distance (3.5") for 1:1 shots of live insects, which is why I got my Sigma 150mm f/2.8 Macro (7.6" working distance). However, a longer focal length is going to make it more and more difficult to use it for shots of larger subjects, e.g. swords. At 60mm, you already need about 12 feet to fit a whole katana in-frame.

 

Those are just those lenses I own which I think are relevant to your needs. There are other possibilities, and I strongly recommend you check out the following sites for excellent reviews:

 

http://www.the-digital-picture.com

http://www.photozone.de

 

PS—As long as we are sharing our macro shots.

[Loco Al]

These shots were taken with a Canon EF 100mm f/2.8 L IS USM Macro and a full frame (5D Mk3) Canon camera. The images form the Canon EF 100mm f/2.8 USM Macro are every bit as good except that it is much cheaper without the image stabilization feature.

 

 

 

Alan

[Loco Al]

PS—As long as we are sharing our macro shots.

 

Wow, tremendous!!!

 

Alan

[Gabriel L]

Wow, tremendous!!!

 

Alan

 

Thanks Alan. :D You've got some nice photos there as well.

 

Hoanh, I should point out that Alan's 100mm macro (a very popular lens, for good reason) on his full-frame sensor camera gives almost the same FOV as my 60mm macro (an underrated lens IMHO) on my APS-C size sensor. Filling a whole katana in the frame on your Rebel using the 100mm will require a LOT of distance, about 20 feet if I am not mistaken!

 

I'm not saying the 100mm is a wrong choice. Indeed, if you combine the 100mm (for macro shots) with a general-purpose zoom )(for overall shots & versatility), it would be quite a potent combination! Just letting you know you should be aware of these issues.

[hxv]

Gentlemen,

 

Thank you ALL for your helpful, detail, and informational replies. This is exactly what I was looking for. You guys rock! I am down between the Canon EFS 100mm f/2.8 and the Canon EFS 60mm f/2.8. But, one more question before I start looking on Craigslist.

 

With a Rebel XTI, what would be the working distance to capture the length of the entire sword for each lens?

 

Regards,

Hoanh

 

P.S. Beautiful pictures (swords and otherwise).

[Gabriel L]

Hoanh,

 

I sort of addressed that (distributed between my two posts), but for the sake of clarity and accuracy I just tried it out:

 

On an APS-C sensor camera (like yours), I need the following distances to comfortably fit a katana within the frame:

 

60mm: ~11 feet

100mm: ~17 feet

 

And thanks for the compliment (or my share of it, at least).

[rkg]

Hoanh,

 

IMHO, the 10-22 is waaay too wide for doing much of any kind of macro work, and I'd posit its not good for overalls either as you'll get some kind of odd looking shots just because of the perspective distortion - if you think about it, the normal field of view for humans is around 30-35mm on a cropped camera like you've got - that distortion is fine for lanscapes/arty stuff - fittings, not so much. In addition, the copies of the 10-22 I played with had big issues with chromatic aberrations - this is bad because while software isn't too bad at taking it off reasonably well defined edges, with a sword you've got high contrast things going on everywhere, and most software that removes CA just makes a mess of it... It was also susceptible to flare. I can't say they are all this bad - it might have been a unit-to-unit issue (I've ranted before about testing EVERY lens you buy - I find a considerable number of new lenses are screwed up in some way, but that's another story) - I sent them all back and lived without one.

 

In addition. with a wide lens like that, You've also got an issue with working distance - to fill up the frame with a tosogu piece you'd have to get really really close with a wide lens, and while you -could- put in a bunch of extension tubes to do this, I wouldn't recommend it... Even wiith a cropped camera I probably wouldn't go shorter than 50mm. back when I was using a cropped camera for shooting tosogu, I used 100 and 180mm macro lenses a lot, with the odd 50mm macro used to shoot koshirae, etc.

 

Where do you want to go with this? Were you getting shots you were happy with using the 17-85 and a macro filter (so a roughly equivalent replacement would be fine), go down the dark path of trying to get the perfect tosogu image, or...? Is this camera going to be dedicated to just shooting tosogu, or do you need it to go out and shoot the wife/kids,landscapes, etc? What focal lengths do you normally shoot at for your general purpose stuff (its often enlightening to see what ranges you shoot in)?

 

If you want to try a macro, you could locate a used tamron 90mm or sigma 105mm macro or maybe just go to the camera store and put the Canon ef-s 60mm macro on your camera and see if you can live with it (It would be too close for me even on a cropped camera, but ymmv...). I'd avoid the sigma 50mm macro (they have issues in the corners), but other than that, its really hard to find a bad macro lens (condition issues aside).

 

If you want to go the all-in-one route zoom/macro filter route, you -can- get some really good images, but it usually involves starting out with a good lens. I have not done much testing on lenses specifically for cropped cameras, so I really don't have a great recommendation for these, other than to suggest that if you were happy with the 17-85 you might try picking up an ef-s 55-200 and try that with a close-up filter - it might be good enough for you, and they can be had cheep.

 

Of course, the best lens in the world doesn't mean much if you aren't lighting/imaging the piece correctly (that's where the magic is), but that's also a different issue.

 

I see scanning was also brought up - that may be good enough for your purposes as well.

 

On your focusing problem - I used to fight with that all the time until I got a live view capable camera - its a LOT easier to focus using the camera tethered to a tablet or a computer.You really should do this - put the camera on a tripod, and just manually focus to place the focus point exactly where you need it.

 

Good Luck,

 

rkg

(Richard George)

 

EDIT: I neglected to mention the canon 100mm macro because it sounded like this was a cost sensitive application for you - you can usually find the other two ~100mm macros cheaper. I have a cannon 100mm macro and its great, though I don't use it much anymore...

[hxv]

Thank you Richard. At this point, considering all of the feedbacks I received, I think the Canon EFS 60mm f/2.8 is my best option and is fairly affordable, too.Many, many thanks to all who pointed me in the right direction. Time to hunt...

 

Regards,

Hoanh

[hxv]

Greetings,

 

I was lucky to have picked up an essentially new Canon EFS 60mm f/2.8 USM for $280 on local CL. Attached are two very quick shots (with no photoshop adjustments other than to downgrade the resolution) of a Ko-Katchushi in my collection (Richard should recognize this tsuba ). Anyhow, this lens is great - much better than my general purpose Canon EFS 17-85mm. The pictures came out very nicely with very little effort, and the working distance is manageable. My next try will be to photograph my swords. Once again, many thanks to all who helped me with my purchasing decision.

 

Regards,

Hoanh

[Gabriel L]

Well that was fast. :lol: Nice tsuba Hoanh, and I'm glad you like the lens so far… I'm always nervous when someone stakes their hard-earned cash on something I happened to have recommended.

 

By the way, if you're looking for bleeding-edge sharpness, Alan & Richard have already pointed out a big factor in using a tripod & live view to focus. To expand that advice out a bit, I'd add the following:

 

1) This lens is sharpest at about f/5.6 (most lenses are sharpest two stops down from wide open).

2) Although you can get good results handheld with the right light, a tripod makes everything much easier.

3) As you can see, the closer you focus, the narrower the depth of field; when shooting angled shots (like your second pic), it is typical to stop down to f/8, f/11, or even f/16 to maximize the depth of field. This lens is still very good at f/8 and f/11 and decent at f/16, but I would not go further than that as resolution begins to drop.

4) If you're on a tripod, using mirror lockup with a remote (or a 2-second timer) will give you better macro shots, since macro is extremely susceptible to camera vibrations.

5) When shooting macro, use manual focus, not auto. Live view is key: use the zoom function on the point you want in focus, so you can easily see when you nail the correct focus.

6) If you go off the deep end, you can get a focusing rail to focus by moving the camera forward and back (rather than by spinning the focusing ring). But that is mostly useful for super-fine adjustments when capturing subjects at maximum magnification… definitely a luxury rather than a necessity.

 

I'm offering these tips on the (totally baseless) assumption that you may not already be aware of them. If you are, then please forgive my reiteration of them. As Richard points out, composition and lighting are far more important than eking out the highest possible sharpness anyway.

 

In any case, have fun and good luck. :-)

[hxv]

Gabriel,

 

No problem at all about iterations! I do have a remote for mirror lockup and do have a very sturdy tripod. I don't now anything about LiveView, though. I can connect (by wire) my camera to my computer monitor, but don't actually see an image until I shoot. How can I see the camera's view on the computer screen as I am focusing without having to shoot a picture? Help would be most appreciated.

 

Regards,

Hoanh

[Gabriel L]

Hoanh,

 

My apologies, I did a little searching and found out that the XTi does not have a Live View function. I should have found that out before posting!

 

In any case Live View is another luxury, one which makes focusing macro shots easier, but has no direct impact on what actually ends up in the photo; you can still achieve proper focus via traditional means (also "shoot-and-check" as you already know).

 

Regards,

 

Gabriel

[hxv]

Thank you Gabriel!

 

Hoanh

[Darcy]

Hoanh,

 

My apologies, I did a little searching and found out that the XTi does not have a Live View function. I should have found that out before posting!

 

In any case Live View is another luxury, one which makes focusing macro shots easier, but has no direct impact on what actually ends up in the photo; you can still achieve proper focus via traditional means (also "shoot-and-check" as you already know).

 

Regards,

 

Gabriel

 

Actually about the Live View photos, there is considerably less vibration inside the camera when shooting with Live View vs. the shutter. Unless you have very bright light and a very fast shutter then, you will get more razor sharpness with Live View than without.

 

The problem becomes worse as the length of the lens increases, both because any small vibrations can result in higher degrees of movement of the end point of the lens, and because the longer lenses tend to end up with smaller apertures and so longer exposure times.

 

I did a study on this with the EF-180mm L macro lens and a Canon 5D mk II mounted on a tripod.

 

Mirror Lockup will result in an image partway between the two but can make things worse in some cases. There is a horizontal slide in the resulting image when there is no mirror lockup. When mirror lockup is engaged this turns into a diagonal slide which may or may not be worse than a horizontal slide. Live View eliminates all sliding. This is in the 5D mk II. I did an in depth study as mentioned and reported it all to Canon.

 

Now, handheld, I am not sure what the overall effect is going to be or if it is going to be negligable compared to what your hands are already inserting into the equation. But Live View does indeed generate a better quality image on a tripod mount and I think this will always indicate a better image when used in the hands. It's not clear about what the focus is going to do for you though, sometimes it's better to be done in software, sometimes better in hardware. In my experience with Canon units, focus tends to suck anyway and Live View does a better job.

 

The image below is a single green element of a single pixel (so basically 1/3 of a pixel) of an Apple LCD display. You can see the 180mm is capable of blowing things up pretty nicely as you probably have not seen what 1/3 of a pixel looks like before. But it is absolutely clear that the Live View image is far superior to what was able to be captured in the other two instances.

 

I took my rig apart and assembled from scratch one week later and replicated the same results of the experiment.

 

If you are shooting with a tripod, this is one photography secret, that you will improve your results with Live View, at least on the 5D2.

[Gabriel L]

Darcy, that's a great point. It is totally logical yet never occurred to me before, that live view should be like an über version of mirror lockup.

 

I use it as a matter of course, my 60D has a swiveling screen so it's a natural fit for live view macro shots. I don't have to contort myself to frame a profile image of an insect near the ground, I can just look down at the screen. And in the "studio" (cough*basement*cough) zoomed-in live view is still so helpful for for nailing focus (on a tripod with a focusing rail, usually) that it's pretty much de rigeur.

 

Still, good to know that it actually can have such a direct effect on image quality.

[Marius]

Gents,

 

a quick (and possibly stupid) question:

 

while I have no ambition to make good pics of a sword's sugata, I like to show its hataraki. Darcy makes the best pics I know. Of course a serious set-up is needed for this.

 

I make pics of my hataraki with a simple LED lamp and I take them freehand. The results are (obviously) so so. I use the bog standard Canon 18-55mm lens.

 

Attached are two of my pics. Not the worst crap, but highly unsatisfactory. What lens would you recommend for such pics?

 

Sorry to have hijacked this thread...

[Gabriel L]

Marius,

 

I defer to Darcy's hard-earned experience in lighting and bringing out hataraki, but I will at least venture a couple ideas/opinions. There are a few separate elements to your post:

 

1. What lens would you recommend for such pics?

 

This, to me, is the easiest question to answer; for closeups a dedicated macro lens will handily beat the 18-55 kit for image quality (including resolution, distortion, chromatic aberration, etc.). As to which one to get, that depends on your use cases, budget, current lens lineup, and long-term lens collection plans. A lot of good macros have already been discussed in this thread.

 

2. …and I take them freehand.

 

Get a tripod. It is possible to take good freehand shots, even macro, but it is just SO much easier to do product/macro photography using a tripod that it is a "no-brainer" as they say. Especially since good sword lighting is typically accomplished in a relatively dark indoor environment.

 

3. …with a simple LED lamp…

 

I think such a light source can be used effectively, but here we are obviously getting a lot of glare in the center and severe light falloff at the edges. That means the zone where anything can truly be seen is quite narrow. I think that to get really good results you are going to need more lights, positioned differently (probably further back and more angled, resulting in more even illumination). But this is one area of photo voodoo which requires a lot of experimenting and personal method to develop a usable solution… I certainly don't claim to have any such formula established myself.

 

4. The results are (obviously) so so.

 

We have identified a few ways in which they can be improved. I would also add that your depth of field (in-focus range from front to back) is too narrow, meaning your aperture is too large (low f-stop) for such an angled shot. If you are going to angle the sword like this, and shoot closeup (macro) pics, you need to stop down a lot to get more in focus—f/11, f/16 as I said earlier. This in turn requires a lot of light or a still camera, which again circles back to requiring a tripod.

 

----

 

As you can see, only one of these suggestions involves upgrading your lens. While that will certainly eke out some more image quality and enable closer focusing, the major difficulty in sword photography is lighting, composition, technique etc. This requires much tweaking and trial and error and I am not an expert myself. Best of luck in improving your method!

 

—G.

[rkg]

Hoanh,

 

My bad too on this - I thought the XTi had live view as well. FWIW, if you plan on doing much of this kind of shooting, its worth every penny to buy a newer body that has this capability - If you don't want to spring for a new camera, people are practically giving old XSi bodies away.

 

Best,

 

rkg

 

 

 

Gabriel,

 

No problem at all about iterations! I do have a remote for mirror lockup and do have a very sturdy tripod. I don't now anything about LiveView, though. I can connect (by wire) my camera to my computer monitor, but don't actually see an image until I shoot. How can I see the camera's view on the computer screen as I am focusing without having to shoot a picture? Help would be most appreciated.

 

Regards,

Hoanh

[hxv]

Richard,

 

No problem at all. The person who sold me the lens also had the XSI body for sale for really cheap. It has been sold now, but I think I will hunt for another one locally. I have been sold on LiveView. It's too repetitive and tiresome to shoot, look, delete, and repeat!

 

EDIT: I just posted pictures of my Hoju daito using the new lens viewtopic.php?f=1&t=19234&p=172793#p172793. Please visit!!!

 

Regards,

Hoanh

[Veli]

Darcy,

 

Your experiment result with Live View vs. mirror lockup is surprising and valuable. How did you do the triggering when shooting with the mirror lockup? Camera trigger or wired remote or wireless remote trigger? Time delay or no delay?

 

BR,

 

Veli

[Loco Al]

O.K., just one more bug photo which I took this weekend with the EF100mm Macro. I couldn't resist. This little guy was no bigger than my thumbnail.

 

 

Congratulations on you new lens purchase Hoanh. It appears you have already put it to good use, judging by the new photos in your thread in the Nihonto section (Question on terminologies). Those are surprisingly good photos.

 

Alan

[hxv]

Thank you Alan. Nice picture!

 

Regards,

Hoanh

[Gabriel L]

Very cool Alan.

 

And Hoanh, good work on the photos, you're showing a lot of detail. If I could give two friendly suggestions, it would be to stop down more (i.e. reduce your aperture = increase your f-number, like from f/2.8 -> f/8). Some of your macro shots show part of the blade in focus, and just a few mm deeper or shallower the sword loses focus. The second suggestion would be to vary the lighting: try shooting the blade in a darker room with a dark area in the blade's reflection trajectory, and angle your light sources, to bring out more of the hamon. The ISO should remain low, the only thing to go up will be the shutter speed, but that doesn't matter because you have a tripod.

 

You're doing a good job already, and with a very interesting sword. We all have room to improve however… photography is like any other pursuit, there's always the next step.

 

Cheers,

 

—G.

[hxv]

Gabriel,

 

Thank you for the suggestions. I am using the manual (M) mode and know exactly what you are suggesting. I'll play with these variables and post more pictures.

 

Regards,

Hoanh