A very interesting tsuba

[IanB]

All, This was pointed out to me by a colleague. I'm not sure of the age of the tsuba per se, but the surface plates are 16th century.

Ian Bottomley

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/111370317565? ... 1423.l2649

[Thierry BERNARD]

Interesting 3 plates construction.

 

but the position of the zogan motif is very strange! I don't really understand why it's done this way???

[Geraint]

I think the clue is in what the surface plates come from that is 16th century. Fascinating thing, wouldn't it be great to find out it's history?

 

Thanks for sharing that one Ian.

 

All the best.

[John A Stuart]

When I first saw it it seemed to replicate that embossed leather of European style. John

[Pete Klein]

My gut hunch is that this is a recently produced 'tsuba' utilizing old metalwork. The dimensions of the nakago ana and hitsu ana are non-complimentary as is the size and thickness of the 'tsuba' to the nakago ana. The soft metal fukurin and hitsu ana inserts look recent and have indentations for a seppa yet no seppa zuri are visible. Placement of the surface design work of the plate is also inconsistent with the norm. It simply looks to be something made from a piece of old metal work by someone who either doesn't understand sword mounting or was making a huge tsuba for a very small tanto...

[Ford Hallam]

My impressions echo Pete's exactly. The indents on the linings of the ryo-hitsu are for a round 'seppa' also, not the usual oval. I wouldn't even call it a tsuba.

[Geraint]

  Quote

When I first saw it it seemed to replicate that embossed leather of European style. John

Pretty close I think. Whatever else is causing concern the placement of the decoration derives from the source of the metal rather than any design intention. It may indeed be modern and it does look as if it has never been on a sword but if you are going to use a bit of scrap metal, what a way to go!

[raven2]

I have to agree on a "modern" piece. The nakago-ana is tiny for such a large plate. It might fit a small tanto but the plate would be huge in comparison.

[Stephen]

Looks more of a detractive hot plate and not functional tsuba

[cspage]

While everyone's comments about this "tsuba" are analytical as to its construction age and authenticity as a tsuba, no one seems to have anything to say about the aesthetics other than Geraint, " Whatever else is causing concern the placement of the decoration derives from the source of the metal rather than any design intention," and "what a way to go." I would differ from that in that the design intention appears to be very considered. The placement of the "zogan" in relation to the format, the ana, etc. appears to be thought out and deliberate. While not "traditional" in any sense, it does reflect perhaps a more modern composition (I almost said "western composition," but that would just open up that old and worn out can of worms).

 

And as far as "what a way to go," it may not be a tsuba, but it is interesting and perhaps even nifty in its own right.

 

Just my 2 cents. I am now running away quickly.

 

Colin

[Geraint]

I think we are making a mistake referring to the decoration as zogan. The source of the material for the two outer plates is the key.

Now I'm running too.

[BMarkhasin]

I have seen this type of pattern in Momoyama period tachi koshirae which used imported Portuguese gilt leather / embossed leather. Similar designs were also used on armor. Is the suggestion here that this 'tsuba' was created from reused armor bits dating to the 16th c.?

 

Best,

Boris

[Curran]

  BMarkhasin said:

I have seen this type of pattern in Momoyama period tachi koshirae which used imported Portuguese gilt leather / embossed leather. Similar designs were also used on armor. Is the suggestion here that this 'tsuba' was created from reused armor bits dating to the 16th c.?

 

Best,

Boris

 

That is how I read it. Was kinda fun to see how far people would step around it before actually saying it.

A tsuba sandwich made from two cuts of an old spanish or portuguese armor?

[Thierry BERNARD]

  BMarkhasin said:

I have seen this type of pattern in Momoyama period tachi koshirae which used imported Portuguese gilt leather / embossed leather. Similar designs were also used on armor. Is the suggestion here that this 'tsuba' was created from reused armor bits dating to the 16th c.?

 

Best,

Boris

 

It makes sense! and explain all!

thank you Ian for pointing on this tsuba

[Pete Klein]

[Uechi]

No offense. but the design looks skewed and the Gold design looks like it was painted. You like it fine, for me no sale, not my cup of tea.As far as interesting not.

[Ford Hallam]

I can't say I'm convinced these plates have any real age at all, the edges of the etched design seem too crisp for steel that purports to be more than 400 years old. The gold does in fact look like paint to me also and judging from the inside of the 'nakago-ana' the plates seem pretty thick, certainly thicker than plate armour. Unless it was off a tank :D

[kaigunair]

Seems to me it would make a great compliment to a tanto in yorori doshi, eh?

[Curran]

Mounted

or

Rammed through as Proof of Concept

 

A yoroi-doshi mounted with this tsuba would probably look like a Spinning Top.

[IanB]

Now that this tsuba has been sold, I feel free to comment further. The plates on the faces of this tsuba have been cut from an etched and gilded European armour. The etched bands with their infill of scrolling foliage are absolutely typical of Italian armour made during the 16th century. One of the interesting details is the secondary decoration of small motifs bordering the bands. Because the major decoration within the bands tends to be rather stereotyped, one of my colleagues at the Royal Armouries used these minor elements of decoration, which can vary from fleur-de-lis to variously shaped leaves, to identify the detached components of several armours in Malta. I have been puzzling just where on such an armour the plates originally were. Judging by the intersections of the bands, I suspect they may have been part of a pauldron. As for the size of the tsuba in comparison to the nakago ana, could I suggest the tsuba was for some form of staff weapon?

Congratulation to the buyer - they have acquired a rarity.

Ian Bottomley

[John A Stuart]

There aren't a lot of these about surely and the price to obtain it low. I think it fits in with a collection of Namban tsuba well, as a rarity, like the tsuba that was made from the coin. I wonder if it had a significance to the original person who commissioned it as a memento of some encounter with an Italianate gentleman. John

[Ask]

"My impressions echo Pete's exactly. The indents on the linings of the ryo-hitsu are for a round 'seppa' also, not the usual oval. I wouldn't even call it a tsuba."

 

Could be a really expensive coaster

[Ford Hallam]

My objection to the idea these decorative plates were originally parts of an armour is based on the simple fact that these are evidently perfectly flat plates and armour for humans rarely is. Granted, metal can be reshaped but invariably this requires heat and that leads to a degradation of gilded decoration, not to mention distortion of delicate etched surface patterns as a result of whatever force is utilised to flatten the plates.

[Pete Klein]

I absolutely agree with Ford. I also question their thickness. When the pieces of the puzzle simply do not come together in a congruous interlock there's a problem.

[kaigunair]

In case you run into another of these and need to know the difference between it and a coaster...

 

[Ask]

Ouch !

 

Just for comparison and a little humour can you take another shot of the glass on the tsuba :D

[Bugyotsuji]

The surface does look as if it could have undertaken a flattening process, in a large press of some kind perhaps?

 

I'll get my hat and coat, the only ones left on the stand. (?)

[IanB]

Having seen photos taken by its new owner, it is evident that it is not from a pauldron but from a breastplate and cut from up near the arm holes. Apparently the plates are near 5mm thick and the central core only 1mm thick and brass looking. In other words the two outer plates are brazed together and the fukurin added to hide the join. As for what it is - how about a nagamaki?

Ian Bottomley