Theories of Funny - Mei

[Jean]

Thanks Chris.

 

Without pun, a bit difficult for a foreigner "Yasutsugu was forging forgeries which were fakes"

 

Forgery:

1. the act of reproducing something for a deceitful or fraudulent purpose

 

It seems that the act in itself (chiselling a false signature) is forgery and the result is a fake.

[cabowen]

 

Debating the mindset of the forger from possibly centuries ago is a great pastime but not for me.

 

I agree and that's why I was focusing on the tangible (the result), not the intangible (the mindset)....

[Brian]

 

Debating the mindset of the forger from possibly centuries ago is a great pastime but not for me.

 

I agree and that's why I was focusing on the tangible (the result), not the intangible (the mindset)....

We need to all be conscious of the way these debates come across. Sometimes they can start to look like a challenge to every point made, every time. And then it becomes tedious. When these things go past one or 2 replies...they cross the line from discussion to something else entirely. We don't need a reply to every point made, at some point it is time to drop the debate.

 

Brian

[Brian]

Fwiw, I think the Kunitsugu is a later addition, and the tachimei is the original.

 

Brian

[ancientnoob]

Fwiw, I think the Kunitsugu is a later addition, and the tachimei is the original.

 

Brian

 

I tend to lean towards that logic. We may never know the true answer and will probably have it Shinsa'd in the future. It was very interesting in Dary's post when he spoke of a honest mei that was was erased and replaced with a false mei. A wonderful example. I think to myself why would someone place another mei on a sword that had one already and pass it off as a lesser smith. Maybe the attribution was made to second signature in antiquity.

 

I also wonder if there is a reference book that covers the different types of gimei? Or forgeries in general? Maybe the second signature is not a smith's mei at all and rather an owner's name. Are there examples of this. I know during the muromachi period people had swords custom made and often had some type of pre-mei text included.

 

Thanks for contributing to my (and others nihonto) education.

 

I am also with the guys that think it is important to understand a "type" of forgery rather than dismissing it. By dismissing what type of forgery it is a valuable chunk of nihonto and Japanese historical study is lost.

 

Thanks again.

[Guido]

Not trying to re-open a can of worms, just filling in a blank: Fujishiro writes indeed that Yoshihiro changed his signature from 義廣 to 善弘 to 義弘. However, this is not mentioned in any of my other (Japanese) books (and I have quite a few :D).

[Bugyotsuji]

Guido, the Meikan on p. 1202 at the bottom appears to list all of those ways of signing Yoshihiro, although it does not suggest any order to the changes..