Ask Posted May 26, 2014 Report Posted May 26, 2014 I think I'm on the correct page but forgive if I'm not. Ok from my other post on higo kami fujiwara yasutsugu I had little or no new information come up and no clear mei photo. So my question is this:- Are higo kami fujiwara yasutsugu and higo daijo fujiwara yasutsugu the same man? The same man who was once echizen no kuni juu shimosaka? I believe they are all the same man but I'm looking for confirmation.
Jean Posted May 26, 2014 Report Posted May 26, 2014 Higo no kami unknown Second and third mei are 1st generation Yasutsugu
Ask Posted May 26, 2014 Author Report Posted May 26, 2014 I can find literature on " kami " but no photos. I don't wish to offend anyone but who would be among the most knowledgable people on the board,in this field?
Jean Posted May 26, 2014 Report Posted May 26, 2014 John, In this field there is only one expert: Books (and I checked on Markus Sesko book Index of Japanese swordsmiths) Btw, google Higo no kami fujiwara Yasutsugu (I did it and nothing)
Stephen Posted May 26, 2014 Report Posted May 26, 2014 Check with Fred at Nihonto.com, where I got the diagram, he has a whole page devoted to the smith. some members are not all the time and it is a holiday.
Ask Posted May 26, 2014 Author Report Posted May 26, 2014 Â Sadakuni received the title of Higo (no) Kami the same as the first generation Yasutsugu. Sorry jean I'm not great on PC but the above sentence is copied and pasted. The 1st generation was echizen no kuni juu shimosaka who then became higo daijo fujiwara yasutsugu,is that not correct?
John A Stuart Posted May 27, 2014 Report Posted May 27, 2014 From Fujishiro. YASUTSUGU SHODAI [KEICHÔ 1596 MUSASHI] SHINTÔ JÔJÔSAKU He is a man of Ômi no Kuni Sakada-gôri Shimosaka-mura, and is called Shimosaka Ichizaemon. He received the title of Higo no Daijô, and in the beginning signed ECHIZEN KUNI SHIMOSAKA. He was engaged (as a smith) by Yûki Hideyasu. In Keichô Hachinen (1603) he received from the Ôgosho (the highest authority) permission to use the AOI MON (Hollyhock, the Mon of the Tokugawa clan), and he changed his mei to Yasutsugu. It is said that he had to serve alternate years in Echizen and Edo since then. He was expert at copying kotô blades, and the swords he made have a shallow notare ha, ji is mokume tatsu, and once in a great while, hitatsura is seen. The horimono are probably done by the hand of Kinai. However, in the beginning, perhaps Yasutsugu made the horimono himself. In the Tokugawa Ke, after the battle of Osaka, tôken were awarded as prizes for meritorious deeds, and at the present day, among the heirlooms of the old daimyô, many of the mumei swords of Masamune, Sadamune, and Kenmu Nobukuni nado are thought to have been made by Yasutsugu, and you can see one part of the government policies of the house of Tokugawa. He died on Genna Shichinen (1621) Kugatsu Kokonoka (9/9). Signatures: MOTTE NANBANTETSU OITE BUSHÛ EDO ECHIZEN YASUTSUGU ECHIZEN KUNI JÛ YASUTSUGU OITE BUSHÛ EDO ECHIZEN YASUTSUGU HIGO NO DAIJÔ FUJIWARA ECHIZEN YASUTSUGU ECHIZEN KUNI SHIMOSAKA HIGO NO DAIJÔ FUJIWARA SHIMOSAKA There are some with and some without the AOI MON. Page 289 Phrase is part of preceding sentence. Plate I: HIGO NO DAIJÔ FUJIWARA SHIMOSAKA Plate II: MOTTE NANBANTETSU OITE BUSHÛ EDO ECHIZEN YASUTSUGU Plate III: OITE BUSHÛ EDO ECHIZEN YASUTSUGU The succession to the name of Yasutsugu by each generation can be accurately distinguished by means of the mei kanji. The most noticeable among these is the kanji for "TSUGU" in Yasutsugu. I wish to caution you that the mei kanji are different for each generation. Page 290 Plate I: OITE BUSHÛ EDO ECHIZEN YASUTSUGU Plate II: No caption. Pictures of DOKKO KEN and KENMAKIRYÛ. Horimono in the grooves was a specialty of the shodai Yasutsugu, and this degree of engraving is thought to have been done by Yasutsugu himself, but I wonder if these were also engravings by Kinai. [TN] Plate III: No caption. Both ashi iri and sunanagashi are mixed in notare ha, jitetsu is mokume hada aware (coarse), and this is reminiscent of kosaku matsukawa hada. (Similar smiths, each generation of Yasutsugu, Echizen Shigetaka and other Echizen tôkô, Horikawa Kunihiro) There are hirazukuri wakizashi with a wide body and sori. This style of work is a distinctive feature of the times which is seen from Keichô to Kan'ei, in other words, in the beginning of the shintô period.
Ask Posted May 27, 2014 Author Report Posted May 27, 2014 John excellent as always thank you. Nice info, here's my take:- This is a copy paste by By Fred Weissberg 1/05 Higo Daijo Sadakuni was from Echizen Province. He worked around the beginning of the Shinto Era, around Keicho (1596) and Kanei (1624). There are various stories about the lineage of this smith. Some attribute him to being the younger brother of Higo (no) Kuni Dotanuki Masakuni. And others say he was the younger brother of the first generation Yasutsugu. Â Sadakuni received the title of Higo (no) Kami the same as the first generation Yasutsugu. Many of his remaining works are tanto and hira zukuri wakizashi. He is rated as being equal to Yasutsugu and is most famous for his fine carving of horimono. Interesting first paragraph but not what I'd like to draw your attention to, the second paragraph states that Sadakuni received the title of higo no kami the same as 1st generation yasutsugu. That would suggest to me he also used that title?
Toryu2020 Posted May 27, 2014 Report Posted May 27, 2014 John - Fred (Nihonto.com) only rarely visits these pages - after reviewing the articles in question I am convinced you have spotted a typo. A quick check of the Nihonto Meikan show that several generations of Yasutsugu and at least two Sadakuni received the title of Higo Daijo - while neither Yasutsugu or Sadakuni are listed as having the title Higo (no) Kami. This leads me to believe that Fred typed no Kami when he meant Daijo. Given the tremendous amount of research he has to do and the number of articles over the years this must be what happened. I can always ask him to clarify if it is a matter of great importance to the group... -t
Ask Posted May 27, 2014 Author Report Posted May 27, 2014 Than you Thomas I've already made contact with Fred and he suggest that his article is correct and that only the 1st gen may have used that title. He also suggested some other things to do.
Jean Posted May 27, 2014 Report Posted May 27, 2014 Conclusion, John: As I told you 1 - there is no Higo no kami.. A quick search on the web shows it 2 - only experts in this field are books You should begin to buy books, if you are interested in this field. Markus Sesko book (Index of Japanese swordsmiths) is one of the best I know (in English), the electronic version (the one I use) is not expensive. Should you want to go further, Fujishiro's books (Koto and Shinto volumes) are very useful, with signed tang photos, but with its translation by AFU Watson, it costs an eye but worth of it.
Ed Posted May 27, 2014 Report Posted May 27, 2014 John, As Jean has pointed out the Shodai Yasutsugu signed, "Higo no Daijo", not "Higo no Kami". I did not see the "Sadakuni" quote you referred to on Fred's site, but I as well believe if it was written, it was a typo. Take the time go back and read Fred's articles regarding Yasutsugu, you will note there are no known good signatures listed which contain "Higo no Kami". As well, I have seen no examples in the Taikan. The shodai was the only generation to have used "Higo no Daijo", until much later. The last two Yasutsugu smith's, (10th and 11th generation) Edo Yasutsugu are listed as using the title "Higo no Daijo". These two smiths worked c. 1818 and 1854 respectively. Not to say this is absolute, but it is what we know today. Perhaps in the future something will turn up to change the currently accepted views. Surprised you haven't googled this, or no one has pointed you towards these examples. If you would like to read more and have a look at a few mei examples, you can go here: http://yakiba.com/article_yasutsugu.htm
Ask Posted May 28, 2014 Author Report Posted May 28, 2014 Thanks Ed. As I said I spoke to Fred yesterday by way of mail and he never suggested it was a typo. He even sent me a full copy of his write up. As far as I'm concerned I will continue to search around and try 1 or 2 other thing Fred suggested too. I've seen numerous references to the use of kami or 守 for other smiths but only Fred's ref for the guy I'm looking for. It's no problem so thanks for all the input.
Ed Posted May 28, 2014 Report Posted May 28, 2014 HIGO DAIJO SADAKUNI By Fred Weissberg 1/05 Higo Daijo Sadakuni was from Echizen Province. He was of the Echizen Yasutsugu School. Sadakuni received the title of Higo Daijo the same as the first generation Yasutsugu. MEI: HIGO DAIJO SADAKUNI HIGO DAIJO FUJIWARA SADAKUNI John, I don't know what you are reading, but I went and copied Fred's article (excerpt in quote above). It clearly say's "HIGO no DAIJO", not Higo no Kami. The link I provided you with includes known good mei examples of this smith, the guy you are looking for. I own swords by the Shodai, Nidai and Sandai Yasutsugu.
Ask Posted May 28, 2014 Author Report Posted May 28, 2014 Lord almighty I can't find it I'm sure I read it if I never I never but I'm sure I saw it. I've been searching every where for 2 weeks I'm seeing higo kami in my sleep. I already said I will continue to research myself can we put this to bed now please?
Ask Posted May 31, 2014 Author Report Posted May 31, 2014 To all concerned I apologise,the name is not " higo no kami fujiwara yasutsugu ", it's higo no kami fujiwara yasutsuna ". I'm really sorry but I misread can you of greater knowledge school me on higo no kami fujiwara yasutsuna,please.
Ed Posted May 31, 2014 Report Posted May 31, 2014 I already said I will continue to research myself can we put this to bed now please? You were adamant in disregarding the information, correct information, previously in favor of researching it yourself. You didn't want the help offered and your disregard bordered on being disrespectful(IMHO). That kind of attitude is not welcomed anywhere, nor is it a good way to enlist future help. Good luck.
Jean Posted May 31, 2014 Report Posted May 31, 2014 Quick search on Sho Shin website, gives the period and school, Japanese swordsmiths Index (Markus Sesko) gives the data on the smith. The Connoisseur's book of Japanese Swords gives info on the School (google).
Ask Posted May 31, 2014 Author Report Posted May 31, 2014 Thanks jean I got that,I was just looking for anything extra or indepth. Worth,previous sales,sought after etc
Ask Posted June 1, 2014 Author Report Posted June 1, 2014 Ed and Stephen,when I came and posted here I got off on the wrong foot and very quickly apologised to those concerned and they were graceful enought to forgive. I would like to add that the people in question were mods and senior members who seemed to have extensive knowledge and forth coming with it. Anyone that read my post can clearly see I have no knowledge in this field so if I came across as "disrespectful" it was certainly not my intention. My wife and her father ( who are Japanese) tried to help translate 400 year old kanji and in this instance appeared they may have gotten it wrong so I've done my apologizing here you'll get no more. I got the information I needed,so if it pleases the likes of you I won't post again. To the mods and anyone who helped thank you very much. To the trolls and kiss asses that jump on band wagons **** *** very much.
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