hizen yoshifusa

[drjoe]

this one deserves a post.

 

http://www.ebay.com/itm/151308364788

 

first, to be clear, i am not thinking of buying this blade. nor am i trying to start a discussion about this seller per se, who is a member here.

 

mainly my questions are 1) is a huge hagire in the mune side of the nakago really not considered a fatal flaw (and if not, why not?) and 2) why would a smith as celebrated as one of the top hizen tadayoshi makers not sign a sword that they were proud of (i'm thinking of nobuo nakahara's comments on mumei blades here)?

[bobtail44]

If this sellers items don't bid high enough he just cancels the sale from personal experience

 

If the flaw affects the final sale value drastically then its fatal. Imo. Considering what the biddings at id say people don't mind it.

Fatal I suppose comes from a couple of different points of view. Its either so badly damaged or flawed that it has no monetary value or it is unusable in a combat context. Eg it might break under impact.

 

Trent Spencer

[Jean]

Trent,

 

As we are collecting weapons, a fatal flaw means that the weapon will "die" (break) if used for its purpose. .

[bobtail44]

  Jean said:

Trent,

 

As we are collecting weapons, a fatal flaw means that the weapon will "die" (break) if used for its purpose. .

 

But some fatal flaws won't cause the blade to break. They just devalue it. I figured it was something that was based on value as well as practical usability?

 

http://japaneseswordindex.com/kizu.htm

 

 

Trent Spencer

[cabowen]

The issue with the nakago on this sword is, at best, a major eye sore. At worst, it could make the sword dangerous to use. To me, I would never consider buying such a sword.

[Jean]

  Quote

But some fatal flaws won't cause the blade to break

 

when we say break, Trent, we are talking about the tempered edge, the feature which differences a sword from a club.

[kusunokimasahige]

I wonder if any collector would be :

 

A: crazy enough to buy this

B: crazy enough to have a welder repair the crack and repatinate the nakago.

 

KM

[bobtail44]

  Jean said:

  Quote

But some fatal flaws won't cause the blade to break

 

when we say break, Trent, we are talking about the tempered edge, the feature which differences a sword from a club.

 

If the tip is broken off it is a fatal flaw, but its still a blade

 

Bidding is over $3000 :lol:

 

Trent Spencer

[drjoe]

a fatal flaw is not a subjective thing determined by the purchase price of the sword -- especially on ebay. rather, a fatal flaw is a structural and functional flaw that cannot be repaired.

 

my question is whether such a huge crack in the nakago is considered a fatal flaw. cracks in the nakago are not usually listed among discussions of kizu, and the bidding price suggests it might not be considered fatal. i would however think it is, since it would definitely affect performance and cannot be repaired (except perhaps through welding as someone has suggested). cracks in the softer steel of the nakago should not occur during forging, so it suggests that this crack happened during use of the blade. which means further use would likely worsen the crack.

 

on a related note, i've sometimes wondered why a very small hagire in a very good or historically important blade would be considered fatal. after all, collectors are collecting for preservation and art, not to take their blades into battle. in that way, it seems that some hagire are over-devalued.

 

my second question, still unanswered, had to do with the attribution of a mumei blade to a celebrated shinshinto smith. nakahara suggests that mumei blades are mumei for a reason, so it made me wonder about whether this blade is what it says it is, pending nbthk shinsa notwithstanding.

[cabowen]

I think this blade is indeed mumei for a reason-the large crack in the nakago. I wouldn't read to much into the price and the bidding.

[Jean]

  Quote

Trent wrote

 

If the tip is broken off it is a fatal flaw, but its still a blade

 

No, misconception, depends on the boshi. If there is a break which reaches the boshi, it is no more a weapon.

Japanese judges at Shinsa won't paper a blade with fatal flaws, it has lost its main function.

 

Ask a butcher the use of a carving knife with a broken tip ....

Try to cut efficienly your steack with a broken edge knife ..

[leo]

Not a fatal flaw, as the nakago can be repaired, which is not possible with hagire on yakiba. The crack can be laser-welded, yasurime and patina can be repaired. Though the sword could be used again, this greatly reduces value.

 

Buying such a blade really is simply a matter of personal taste.

 

Another matter is bidding without having seen the final NTHK paper. If seller agrees on receiving funds after buyer has seen the paper and the price ist right, I do not see a problem.

 

Best, Martin

[bobtail44]

Jean,

 

I believe if someone was in battle with a tachi and the tip flew off they could easily continue to kill enemies with it. It might not be ideal but it will still work. That's a fatal flaw but the sword can still serve its intended purpose. (Also it can be repaired)

What I'm saying is that the term fatal flaw isn't as cut an dry as some think. It might be cut and dry by its definition but in its use it is quite flexible. Its almost like a prediction of the future in many cases.

The only example where a flaw could be considered fatal every time by definition is a crack through the temper line near the base of the blade. So that when the sword is used for its intended purpose of killing/cutting it will snap at the tsuba and cease to function.

Shinsa is judging the sword by more than its original, primary purpose so isn't really relevant to the point.

 

 

Trent Spencer

[Jean]

Trent,

 

Joe has perfectly defined a fatal flaw, you will find in any books the definition according Japanese criteria which may not be yours, but in this case good luck in Nihonto study. :D

[drjoe]

  cabowen said:

I think this blade is indeed mumei for a reason-the large crack in the nakago. I wouldn't read to much into the price and the bidding.

 

no way to know, but i'd be surprised if the blade cracked during forging or yaki-ire (or was used and mounted in that state), so that wouldn't explain the lack of a signature. in any case, with that crack, i still find it interesting/puzzling that the nbthk would attribute it to a noteworthy maker.

 

on the side-subject of fatal flaws, it makes sense that a broken sword tip would be fatal. a Japanese sword has a hardened edge that extends through the kissaki and usually includes a boshi. if the tip was broken, even if a new kissaki was shaped, it would no longer have a hardened edge. so, fatal. whether you could still stab someone with it misses the point (pun not intended, but still funny).

 

as for the nakago, i suppose there are plenty examples of blades that are shortened at the nakago, so i shouldn't be surprised that it's not a fatal flaw to have a nakago crack. just cutting it off would be one way to fix such a crack, though in a case like this, you'd have to move the machi quite a bit. i also wonder if the Japanese had other repair techniques akin to welding prior to the modern era.

 

the crack in this case is asymmetric on either side -- on the omote side, it almost runs all the way to the nakago-ha. pretty impressive, really. i wonder how such a crack would have formed. perhaps the nakago was partially hardened and a crack formed on the mune side due to the shock of use.

[kusunokimasahige]

Could a crack in the Nakago like that have been a reason for some swords to have been shortened ?

 

KM