type 3 Gunto & kai-Gunto identification & commentaries

[rancho]

hello all

im french canadian so my English are not very well but i try my best!

my name is Eric

first post on this forum and today i wrote to you all in hope of get informations on my 2 gunto

and maybe an evaluation and commentaries

i have somes questions too

the first saber is a kai-Gunto whit Toyokawa inspection marks stamp but im not sure about it!

the gunto look very good and the blade are sharp and have really good condition .....i think it's anti-rust blade and she is magnetic

the Tsuka look great too but i think its not rayskin under the Tsukaito maybe im wrong!

i know the scabbard miss somes parts like 　Semegane Ishizuki... i see the place where they are before

all parts of the Tsuba have the same number #7 i tink its a +

here a link to take a look of the kai-Gunto https://imageshack.com/a/653q/1

for the second Gunto its a type 3 Gunto whit some symbol on the tang

the sword blade are not in good condition,having some fingerprint and little rust or blackshit incrusted in the blade

the blade are not sharp like the kai-gunto but still sharp to cut ...the kissaki have a minor damage due to improper use or something like that but can be restored whit minor works but im not a real connaissor

i think the blade need a real good pollish at a true workshop for this... but i dont know how the pollish will restaure enough is condition ....i dont know if the best move is...a good polish and restoration or just try to preserve the blade .. i dont know is vallue

2 number found on the fuchi..37 and 80 and the Tsuka are in good condition

on the Tang we have some Kanji maybe you can tell me more about...

my questions are....what do you recommend to stabilize and clean the blade for the type 3 gunto blade?

the value of my Type 3 Gunto is it high enough to warrant more than the Gunto itself-polishing or else it will cost me?

What is the value of each Gunto even if it might be simply a visual rating via Photo

how cost a real traditionnal polish?

here the link......https://imageshack.com/a/u53q/1

any information,tips and commentaries are welcome

thank you

Eric P.

[george trotter]

Bon jour Eric...comme ca va?

Both your swords are WWII gunto (military swords) and both are mass produced showato...not hand made and not worth spending money on expensive polish and resoration. (in my opinion).

The navy sword is from a naval arsenal factory (circle with anchor stamp).

The Type 3 also is from an army arsenal and was inspected ar Osaka? (I think a "saka" stamp...hard to see, maybe Seki stamp).

You do not show the maker's name, only the date May 1944.

Hope this helps.

I used to live in Canada....are they still pooshing that puk halong the hice? :lol:

Love Canada eh!

Regards from Australia,

[rancho]

hello M. Trotter

thank you to take a look on my Gunto pictures!

after over hundred peoples look at my pictures your the only one who wrote something on it and its apreciate

I would have liked more information on the symbols of type 3 gunto, you telling me the sword symbols dated may 1944

the name of the smith are not stamped? on the scabbard there is a old glued paper and on this paper its wrote... family special order blade...traditional soshu school technique... maybe it a lure or false information to fool the buyer...

I continued searching the web .....

and yeah we are still pooshing that puk along the ice whit the Canadien in the playoff series

regards from Québec!

Eric P

[Kai-Gunto]

The tsuka on the kaigunto has leather under the ito.

[george trotter]

Hi Eric,

Your kaigunto is factory made of rust resistant steel (stainless? steel). It is not signed but has the small stamp of "anchor in a circle"....this signifies it was made at Toyokawa Naval Arsenal. Please look in the sectionin Military swords called Arsenal Stamps.

 

Your Type 3 is better, but we need more photographs to be sure.

You have shown the date only which is (reading with the tip of the blade pointing up): Sho wa Ju kyu nen go gatsu ....Showa (period 1926-1989), 10 9 year (19th year), 5 month (May) = 1944 May.

I can see a very small stamp...maybe "seki" or "saka", which shows that it was inspected for the army at Seki town in Gifu Prefecture or Osaka city.

You do not show the signature of the Type 3...I can only see "Ju" (resident of), so you need to take a picture of the makers name.

Regards,

[rancho]

hello

 

Thomas thank you for the comment on the leather tsuka I was wondering what materials it was...do you think that would mean this is a late production kai-Gunto because leather is more availlable at end war ?

M. Trotter i take 6 pictures that show all the symbols on my type 3 Gunto and i find one more on the top side of the tang and its the same stamp that we can see on the right side

type 3 symbols album 6 pictures........https://imageshack.com/a/aa3q/1

i hope this help and thank you for givin me informations

regards

Eric P.

[george trotter]

Thank you Eric.

The maker's name is KANE SUMI....this is a Seki smith of WWII. He is SATO Kohachi and used the art name of Kanesumi (the character sumi is also ju: residence).

He was registered as a swordsmith in Seki town on 27th December 1939. His work is showato-gunto.

I have not seen any work of his that is nihonto, but on page 66 of Slough there is information that he is a Rikugun Jumei Tosho which means he made gendaito (traditional swords) for the army. This information is from Nihonto Meikan page 147.

I hope this helps,

[rancho]

hello all

hey M.Trotter great info you givin me im happy :D

be sure that your info help me

you said that you have not seen any work of Sato Kohachi that is nihonto (if nihonto to you refer to a traditional hand made whit tamahagane) but i found on eBay a blade built by Sato Kohachi and maybe its a traditionnal hand made whit tamahagane steel ....you can see it via this link

http://www.ebay.ca/itm/CIVILIAN-MOUNTS- ... 1047495009

now i know the built date and the swordsmith name .....so im asking myself about if my Gunto is gendaito (traditionally hand made) or just i sword hand made built whit no tamahagane steel like many other....im not a true collector with a lot of knowledge but i think my Gunto is hand made....but i dont know if its tamahagane steel.....i think the blade was built handmade because when i take a look on the kissaki the geometry is not good...the Ko-shinogi are not the same length .....about + - 1 centimeter longer left side....a machine made Gunto dont have this type of ''mistake'' im right? when i take the saber in my hands the type 3 is heavier more than my Kai-Gunto anti-rust steel. How i can determine if its a traditional tamahagane steel or not? No hamon see on the blade maybe it was remove by a neophyte who wanna polish the blade and remove the hamon? is that possible ?

regards

Eric P.

[george trotter]

Hi Eric, I am glad to help.

I cannot tell you if your Kanesumi sword is traditional tamahagane nihonto.

You need to study swords, particularly the signs of a traditional making in the metal (hada) and in the temper signs of crystals in the hamon (nie). It is time to buy books and search on this site for information.

The difference in size/shape at kissaki is not a sign, it could be just the quality of the polisher's skill.

If there is any larger stamp mark on the nakago it is important (see the section here "arsenal stamps"). The star stamp is a good sign of traditional forging, but "sho" and large "Seki" are signs of Showato.

The link you gave to Sato Kanesumi blade on ebay shows a "Seki" stamp above the signature, so the blade is showato...it has been mounted with civilian fittings for iaido.

Regards,

[rancho]

hi M.Trotter

I would like to thank you for the help and knowledge you bring me

would you kindly suggest me a good book that deals with Japanese military sword and could teach me more about the sign of a traditional forged blade?

there are some books and I'd like to know which would be best for me

i browse all the section arsenal stamp and i dont see any inspection stamp like the stamp on my Gunto

i know the star stamp is a good way to determine if the blade are traditionnal built but yesterday i take a look again but no star and no other stamp.... but after a closer look of the blade i see something for me that can be hamon but dont know if im right

maybe its waves spot are create by a cleaning stuff....

you can look 3 pictures in macro mode at diferent distance showing what i am talking about on this link.....https://imageshack.com/a/rfHq/1

regards

Eric P

[george trotter]

Hi Eric,

i'm not sure from the pics what the hamon is (it looks like "shadow" of hamon also - called utsuri).

Use the "search" button - I am sure many have asked for advice on books before.

Also, you can google "sato kanesumi".

Hope this helps,

[rancho]

hi George

Thank you for being the only person on this forum who wanted to help me identify and determine if my blade is autentique or not. I know that my English is not perfect, but the forums and information are scarce french so I tried my luck here. I will continue my research on another forum where participation of peoples usually do not stop at the sight of a blade that can not be autentique!

thank you for the information provided

regards

Eric P.

[george trotter]

Hi Eric,

If you take some better pictures of the blade and the nakago (tang) stamps we might be able to help you more.

Clear pictures are most important. I would like to see those small (petite) stamps on your tang...if they are very small (trez petite estampement) seki stamps, then MAYBE your blade is gendaito (traditional blade - fabrique au traditionale).

I have seen some seki blades with the petite stamps and they were true traditional blades (but) they had the star stamp also.

Please look carefully (and take pics?) as Kanesumi also made traditional blades...so maybe we can help more.

Regards,

George.

PS...there are books to help identify military swords

John Slough "Modern Japanese Swordsmiths 1868-1945" (this is good for the various swordsmith names).

Richard Fuller "Japanese Military and Civil Swords and Dirks"

Maybe the other members will give some more...?

[Brian]

Eric,

2 Points. Firsly, there is no need to most of us to comment, as George is doing a great job of saying what we would say. Not much can be added.

Secondly, and most importantly....many of us only have a short time to skiim through all of the posts. For myself (who has to read every single post every day) following external links to pictures elsewhere on the net (especially ones hosted on many of the photo sharing sites) just takes too much time and effort if there are things I have to be doing elsewhere.

If you post a few pics directly in your post instead of sending us to Imageshack, I think you will be more responses.

 

Brian

[rancho]

hi Brian

i know its faster to look directly in the forum link for seeing picture but...

i trying to put some pictures on the forum but....that say...........The file is too big, maximum allowed size is 1 MB.

how can i load quality picture whit 1mb capacity????

thats why i use imageshack!!! my 5mb macro pictures load very well there!!!

and for you M. Trotter .....if you got time to take a look on some picture on imageshack......

i dont know if its a Seki Stamp on my Gunto! but everybody tell me this is Seki stamp!!

one thing i know thats the 2 stamps are the same and they are really small

i dont have the star stamp

i was looking on different webpages to find a symbol like the symbol i got and i never find one...i looking in all the 15 pages of the forum and all Seki stamp i found are larger and are not exactly the same! i dont think my symbol are a bad stamped Seki stamp....maybe a non usual symbol??

on imageshack you can see close shots of the symbol and the too side of the blade

i dont know if you will see something i miss in the pictures !

close shot stamp https://imageshack.com/a/0FXq/1

left side blade https://imageshack.com/a/CFXq/1

right side blade https://imageshack.com/a/FFXq/1

i think the best move for me its to find a good Togishi to make a window polish just to be sure ....but i think its probably more this kind of method built blade Richard Fuller book talking about i got...

4. Han-tanren abura yaki-ire-to. Partially forged from mill stock, some folding, differentially hardened using oil. Does have a hamon although it is nowhere near as active as a water-quenched sword, but lacks hada.

 

5. Sunobe abura yaki-ire-to. Drawn down, forged to shape, not folded. Differential hardened using oil, may have a fairly inactive hamon, but no hada.

 

6. Mantetsu-to. Rolled from Manchurian railway tracks. Differential hardening using oil, may have a fairly inactive hamon, but no hada.

 

7. Murata-to. Rolled or drawn, oil hardened but not differentially hardened. Yakiba but no visible hamon and no hada.

regards

Eric P.

[Kai-Gunto]

Its a Seki stamp. Its common that the acceptance stamps are poorly strock.

 

Since it got the seki stamp ,its not traditional made ,so I say 4 or 5.

[rancho]

hi Thomas

just copy paste whats somebody wrote on this forum

 

''So I guess the obvious answer is that although they are in the minority, Nihonto with arsenal stamps definitely do exist and can be found out there.''

http://www.militaria.co.za/nihontomessa ... php?t=2404

so i dont what to judge my blade just because the blade have a arsenal stamp! can you give me a link or a picture showing the same little stamp like mine?? all the ''Seki stamp'' i see are bigger!

regards

Eric P.

[Brian]

Eric,

That is this same forum, in its previous incarnation. Wow...I don't miss that colour scheme :D

A lot has been learned since then, and it is pretty much accepted that an arsenal stamp means non-traditionally made. Even if people come up with examples that look like Nihonto from time to time, the general consensus remains.

Yes, it looks smaller than normal, but also does look like a Seki stamp.

The togishi/window idea is probably a good one.

 

Brian

[rancho]

ok Brian thank for reply

you confirm that is a Seki stamp and its apreciate

and whitout the star stamp the chance are low to be a real Gendaito

i will look to find togishi who want to look and make a window polish if the blade look good for him!

regards!

Eric P.

[Stephen]

Eric

 

don't waste your time and money on seki stamp sword, use it to trade up.

[Stu W]

Hello Eric,

 

At over 100 USD per inch of blade for a quality polish it's not cost effective to have any WW2 period blade polished unless it's a confirmed gendaito. Yours, in my view, are not.

 

If you wish to learn more about Military swords I suggest Dawson's updated work as shown below. It seems to be the current Gold Standard.

 

If the study of traditionally made blades is of interest then I suggest the second book I've shown.

 

It may also benefit you to read over this section I have quoted from Dr. Richard Stein's outstanding website, The Japanese Sword Guide, which can be found here ...

 

http://www.japaneseswordindex.com/.

 

"The terms gunto, gendaito and showato are commonly used in reference to Japanese swords of the WW II era; but they used in different ways to convey concepts which are not strictly contained in their definitions.

 

LITERAL DEFINITIONS

 

Gunto - "military sword" (this refers to all swords in military mounts, not to whether the blade is handmade or not.)

 

Gendaito - "modern sword" (this refers to the sword having been made between 1876 and 1945, not to whether the blade is handmade or not.)

 

Showato - "Showa era sword" (this term refers to any sword made during the Showa era, 1926 to 1989, not to whether it is handmade or not.)

 

These are the literal rendering of the terms, but to collectors and students of Japanese swords, these terms carry specific connotations sometimes differing from the literal definitions of the terms. In the arena of Japanese sword commerce, these terms are routinely used interchangeably by those not familiar with their specific usage in sword circles. This leads to great confusion and at times unintentional misrepresentation of the sword in question. Any perspective buyer of a Japanese must know how the seller is using these terms or risk being very disappointed with their purchase.

 

NIHONTO COLLECTOR USAGE

 

To Japanese sword collectors the term "gunto" is used to refer to mass produced, mostly machine made or assembly line production, blades of the WW II era. It is a term of derision. "Gunto" are thought of as low class, poorly made swords having no artist value and of interest only as war relics. Even in Japan, this term is used to describe swords of no value. According to current Japanese regulations, "gunto" are not allowed to be imported into the country either for sale or restoration.

 

The term "gendai or gendaito" on the other hand is used by collectors to refer to traditionally made blades; those which have folded steel and are water tempered. The Japanese require that for a sword to be "gendaito" it must be made of tamehagane or oroshigane even though it is impossible to tell what a sword is made from after the sword is finished and polished. Swords made of forge folded commercial mill steel look the same as those made of tamehagane after they are polished although some collectors feel that swords made of tamehagane are more likely to have active hamon and more prominent hada than those made of folded mill steel.

 

"Showato" is used by collectors to also refer to non-traditionally made swords of the Showa Era. It also implies a lower grade of blade not usually of interest to Nihonto collectors.

 

To be a wise purchaser, one must know how to tell the difference between these types of swords regardless of how the seller is using the terms. This is not always an easy task. Two things to look for in distinguishing a true gendaito from a Showato or gunto (using the terms as a collector would) are the presence of visible hada and an active hamon. It must may emphasized that this is NOT an exact science - even advanced collectors will disagree on whether a sword showing these characteristics is truly gendai or not.

 

 

HINTS ON TELLING THE DIFFERENCE

 

arsenal stamps

 

There are a few "clues" that can be used to help distinguish gendaito from Showato and gunto blades (that is, between traditionally and non-traditionally made blades).

 

Tang stamps are reasonably good indicators of whether a blade is gendai or not. Most of the common arsenal stamped blades, including Showa stamps, Seki stamps and others, are indicative of a non-traditionally made sword blade.

 

There are however a few tang markings which may represent traditionally made swords although this issue is hotly debated.

 

These are the star stamp and the Minatogawa Kikusui mon.

 

Blades bearing these markings are considered by some to be gendaito. Some say that all tang stamps are indicative of non-traditional methods or materials used in the blade production. There are no hard and fast rules. Each blade must be judged on its own merits. The star stamp was used to indicate blades made by smiths of the Rikugun Jumei Tosho (Army approved swordsmiths). Similarly, the Minatogawa mon indicates the blade was made at the Minatogawa Shrine. The Minatogawa Shrine forged traditionally made blades, i.e. gendaito, for the Navy. Minatogawa swords are relatively rare as only a few hundred were made and are avidly sought by collectors as are the Yasukuni Shrine blades.

 

Any blade made at the Yasukuni Shrine forge by a Shrine smith is gendaito. These blades are considered to be among the best quality, traditionally made blades of the WW II era. A list of the swordsmiths working at the Yasukuni Shrine is available in Chris Bowen's Tokyo Kindai Tosho Index. The Yasukuni Shrine forge made blades for the Japanese Army.

 

Swords of the WW II period which have received origami (authentification papers) from the Nihon Bijutsu Token Hozon Kai (NBTHK) or Nihon Token Hozon Kai (NTHK) are also considered gendaito. A partial list of these smiths is also on my website. However, collectors understand that simply because one blade has received origami, does NOT mean that all blades by that smith are gendaito. Smiths not uncommonly made both gendaito and showato during the war. Each blade must be judged on its own merits and not just on the signature of the swordsmith.

 

Swords of the WW II period represent both a low point (Showato and gunto) and a continuation of the tradition of making finely crafted swords (gendaito). This is an area of active research in which new information is forthcoming with great frequency. There is still disagreement between collectors on this issue. Collectors must decide for themselves what they want to study and acquire for their collections. There are no hard and fast rules in the study of WW II period Japanese swords, but hopefully as more information is learned, the job of distinguishing between traditionally made and non-traditionally made blades will become easier."

 

Regards,

Stu

[rancho]

hi Stu

thank you for showing me the right book to buy, on the market we have a lot of books and dont know which on to buy but now i know!!!

your opinion is welcome

i dont want to polish all the blade just a window polish to take a look.....and why i will do this?

because on the scabbard i have this sticker telling the sword was traditionnal made ...probably a false information to fool the buyer but to be sure its not a traditionnal blade i need to check this before sell the blade! after all should we not judge each blade by their own merit?

i do not deceive myself, i know the chances are slim to have a traditional made blade

also i found another good website where different picture showing different hamon,hada type

very good information and pictures for a neophyte like me !

http://www.shibuiswords.com/

http://www.shibuiswords.com/learningkantei.htm

http://www.shibuiswords.com/kanteipics.htm

regards

Eric P.

[cabowen]

This hand written label stating the blade is a special order, in the usual sense, is incorrect, as is the comment that it was made in the soshu style. This was either done out of ignorance or, more likely, as you mention, dishonestly in an attempt to get more money for the blade.

[rancho]

hi Chris

thanks for your opinion!!

from my neophyte view i was thinking......

the blade was special order from a ww2 soldiers who order a blade traditionnaly made

thats can not be true??

notes that there is no family stamp or anything that identifies this Gunto to any family

and i was thinking the tsuka are (from my neophyte view) quality made whit rayskin for a late war built...so more chance to be quality gunto.....

after a view on the website http://ohmura-study.net/900.html i think im wrong and rayskin tsuka are common use in type 3 gunto

i will remove this wrong label

regards

Eric P.

[Stu W]

Hi Eric,

 

Some further information; it's now well documented that Type 3's were used by IJA Officers and had nothing to do with Marines or Naval Landing Forces. That Marines story still survives due to outdated and incorrect information in old reference books and on the Internet.

 

Also, here is a link to the site of Moses Becerra that I find useful as a learning tool. You can scroll through hundreds of sword photos in the Sold archive as well as see current offerings. The photos show characteristics in great detail.

 

http://www.nihontoantiques.com/

 

Regards,

Stu

[Daniel]

Hi Eric

 

If you look at the locking mechanism, does it have two buttons? From my experience the mounts with two buttons "always" has a traditional blade and the ones with a single button "always" contains a non-traditional blade. From what I see I think yours only has one?

I attach a couple of photos showing two of mine to better illustrate what I mean.

 

Kind Regards

Daniel

[Stu W]

Hello Daniel,

 

Interesting point you make. I've owned a couple dozen of the Type 3 and handled many more and always found as you say that the versions with two release buttons have been traditionally made swords whereas the single release button types have not. Furthermore the traditionally made examples I have owned have always been star stamped blades although I am aware of others that were not.

 

Regards,

Stu

[Kai-Gunto]

I once had a type 3 like the first one in Daniel's thread.

It was a traditional made and had no stamps. The scabbard had some parst of the lacquer falling off. There was skin underneth sewen together. From the scabbard mouth to the hanger there was a metal reinforcement , original to the sword . I think they are all made like this when its the high quality type 3.

[rancho]

hi

thank you all for helping me

Daniel, i have the 1 button version !

i will think about what i will do whit this Gunto

Stephen said ...dont waste my time and money and use it to trade up

i love the war style type 3 Gunto and finding a good type 3 whit traditionnal blade are not easy task and cost more money ...

but now i am a little bit more connoisseur whit your tip and advice

thank you all for helping me!

regards

Eric P.

[george trotter]

Hi Eric,

Sorry I have been busy for a while and just saw the rest of the posts on your sword.

His name is Kanesumi or Kanezumi...not Kaneari as the label says (see Kapp & Yoshihara "Modern Japanese Sords and Swordsmiths" page 212)..it is a good book and one you should have (in English).

I see that your very small stamps are "Seki". I feel very certain that your sword (from your new pics) is definitely showato, as members have said.

These 2 small seki stamps do appear on gendaito...I have seen them on date side, usually between "Sho" and "Wa", and also on the mune nearby....but these swords also had the star stamp. From the style of blade and the details of the blade and the nakago, mei etc, I would say gunto-showato.

Do not waste money on polish...it is militaria, not hand made sword.

Regards,

George.