Japanophile?

[Blundemo]

A friend came over to my house to discuss a building project that we're involved in and he caught site of my sword collection while inside. He was impressed at first when I told him about the hobby, but then he asked if I had any European swords, seeing as we're both Caucasian. I said no, because I thought they were less interesting than Japanese blades. He jokingly called me a Japanophile... which I couldn't really argue with. I don't have any European memorabilia or antiques as such.

 

Does anyone here collect European swords, or are we all a bunch of Japanophilic iron fetishists?

[ancientnoob]

Funny. I had a similar experience at my home. I can't profess to know anything more then the very basics of Japanese swords but what I can tell you as I told the person that made a similar comment to me....The Japanese sword is the soul of the Samurai a finely crafted piece of art and certainly an apex weapon of the time. A European sword (and there are exceptions) are just that, a sword it embodies the soul of no one. It is cherished, revered and appreciated in quite the same way. The use of the sword is far less developed in Europe, largely do the widespread use of firearms starting the 1300's. I must admit would still prefer a 17th century Nihonto to a 17th century musket, although I have seen some oober nice guns.

 

Nathan M.

[Blundemo]

I gotta admit the way he said it made me feel some sort of internal guilt afterwards, as if I betrayed a family member or something.

 

I'm trying to get interested in European swords, but I just can't. Maybe swords weren't our strong point and I should be focusing on guns.

[Blundemo]

The Japanese sword is the soul of the Samurai a finely crafted piece of art and certainly an apex weapon of the time. A European sword (and there are exceptions) are just that, a sword it embodies the soul of no one. It is cherished, revered and appreciated in quite the same way.

 

I think he would have really let me have it if I said something similar to that. Glad I kept it minimum, lol.

[Jussi Ekholm]

I have unhealthy obsession in swords... of course nihonto are the baddest obsession but I also try to collect swords of other cultures as well. As I tread with very limited budget, nihonto are my main focus, just sold 2 of my best European sword replicas along with other cheaper stuff to fund my last nihonto purchase. Good thing about replicas is you can always get another replacement where as historical pieces are one of a kind.

 

Now my European replicas have been reduced to only cheap replicas, but one dream is own couple swords from Finnish smiths, and I keep drooling at Patrick Barta's work. But those are lesser priority than nihonto. I have a sweet spot for viking stuff.

 

 

Yataghan and those katars are pieces I like. I'll probably try to flip bayonet, tulwar and kindjal for something else.

 

 

Almost all cultures have swords and weapons that are very intriguing in my mind. I don't think nihonto as a pinnacle of sword making, after all they are just swords like swords of other cultures (still they are my own personal favorite). Even though saying something like that out loud in nihonto forum might not gain a strong support. I'll encourage you all to look also into viking swords, medieval swords, indo-persian swords etc. Lots of fascinating stuff can be found all over the world, and swords of every culture were perfected for their own use.

[Dr Fox]

Hi Jussi

 

Would you agree, that European and other nations swords at 400yrs old, are not in the market place, in the numbers that Japanese swords are.

Is this because Japans national identity, is totally bound up in the spirit of the sword, where as to other nations, the sword is a tool and a means to an end?

And yes, there must be singular examples of swords from other cultures, which have been preserved, but to the Japanese each and every blade is worthy of preservation, thats why there are so many. Not correcting you, but my belief is that they are "not just swords like swords of other cultures"

But Id like to be one who can say, I like the way you display that very varied sword interest.

[Jussi Ekholm]

Well I exaggerated a little, but that has the tendency to draw attention. I'm used to be on the defending side of Japanese swords so often, that on some forums I've been called katana fanboy.

 

My two biggest sword loves, Japanese and Viking, have very much in common. These two being the two I've researched the most, I cannot say if there are similarities to other cultures as well (I haven't researched them enough yet). Japanese had folding and hada, vikings had pattern welding with various patterns. Swords were prized artifacts in both cultures, and most were named (in Japan at least famous ones). In Japan you had Bizen, Soshu etc. while during viking age there were Ulfberht, Ingelrii etc. Sword was very important to warriors of both cultures. "Who can separate a man and his sword? One is nothing without the other" is a passage from Estonian viking age epic Kalevipoeg. During viking age swords were handed down as heirlooms throughout generations. Vikings also had a complex forms about duelling, bit similar way than samurai did have.

 

One of the reasons why viking age swords are so few in number (aside from their age, and evolution of the sword in Europe from those times into modern day) is the fact that many times when the owner died his sword was disposed. Usually swords were broken and buried with him, or thrown into river, lake or sea that another man could not take it. There are tales that sometimes when a famous sword was buried as whole, someone would dig it up and rob it.

 

I think a great phrase was in Ninja Scroll anime, it was about how no matter where you go people are people. Bit philosophical aspect.

 

Here is my favorite sword in Finland, Pappilanmäki sword from Eura, late 600's, it's in our National Museum.

 

 

But I agree Denis, it's quite hard to find "affordable" European swords that are 400+ years old. And they are available in much fewer in number than Japanese swords. On the other hand you can find decent bit newer Indo-persian stuff for way below 1000$'s. But then again comes the connoisseur aspect, the 200$ tulwar that I see as a decent historical piece and I'm happy to own, the connoisseurs of Indian weaponry see as similar junk as we see bottom tier nihonto.

[george trotter]

An interesting topic.

I collect history and love to research history. I have been intrigued with the uniqueness of Japanese swords since I saw my uncle's WWII souvenir when I was about 7 or 8 (he told me then that he had to chase the Japanese soldier 20 miles in the PNG jungle to get it!...years later of course he told me that his squad was allocated 4 swords as souvenirs and he drew one of the 4 straws...it was gendaito, but mumei unfortunately...my cousins still have it).

I still love Japanese swords and history. But, I do not "float away on the myth and legend" associated with nihonto and the samurai spirit etc...I focus on practical history and workmanship and the smith's history more than anything else. I do not feel any "cringe" about collecting, studying, discussing and enjoying nihonto...and I like the Japanese culture...we all have our interests, we can't all like-dislike the same things.

BUT...I also like Western Australian Colonial (and post colonial) history and so I have (I would say) a unique collection of locally issued arms and bayonets and swords that will never be found anywhere else ...all British, but with unique local variations such as Martini-Metford mk I rifles fitted to take the P.1888 sword bayonet and the same with the Martini-Enfield Mk I & II (Herb Woodend of the Enfield Pattern Room said he's let me have the pick of his store if only I'd give him an example of the M-E for his museum as it was the only rifle they didn't keep a sample of ...I said sorry - it stays here) also a I have 2 (that's 2) P.1887 Mk II bayonets (as some will know, the rarest of the rare in British bayonets) that were among those issued here in 1897 to fit 200 Martini-Metford mk II rifles (only 198 more to find haha)...for those interested:

museum.wa.gov.au/sites/default/files/THE%20MARTINI-ENFIELD%20RIFLR%20IN%20WESTERN%20AUSTRALIA.pdf

This and other papers I did when at the WA Museum...this period was a unique opportunity for me (I was the only one interested) as all the museum arms came to it before c.1954, so they must predate all the imports and "discoveries" in Nepal and the fakes of today. This unique knowledge allowed me to quietly collect the "real thing" after I left the museum History Dept in 1995...so, I am about to write up another paper that includes info and items that I have only discovered since I left...even the Museum does not have some of the items that I have (and vice-versa of course...but I keep lookin'!).

 

I would also say that because my ancestors were Scottish Borderers I have an interest in Scottish weapons of the Flodden 1513 period and up to 1780 sort of period, and while I have documentation of the swords my ancestors owned, now lost, no such item has ever appeared before me here...so, that is a gap that maybe one day I will fill...if I last long enough.

All I can say is..keep on collecting...and damn the torpedoes!

Regards,

 

Edit: dang...the link is a pdf but go on the site and type in the title/author and stuff should come up.

[John A Stuart]

Nathan, saying, "The use of the sword is far less developed in Europe...", is very wrong. The use of the sword in Europe has an old and varied history and predates its use in Asia somewhat. Certain groups within that sphere had great reverance towards them and their use. Much has been lost, but, take the Renaissance period for example. The method of the sword and the scientific method became entwined. Take 'laverdadera destreza' for example. A consumate example of European (Spanish) swordplay, quite in keeping with the finer aspects of Japanese kenjutsu. Look up Pacheco de Narvaez and destreza for further info. You may be surprised where that leads. Fencing is still a vibrant art, although linear and ritualised out of historical context. Just to set the record aright. John

[Blundemo]

I have unhealthy obsession in swords... of course nihonto are the baddest obsession but I also try to collect swords of other cultures as well. As I tread with very limited budget, nihonto are my main focus, just sold 2 of my best European sword replicas along with other cheaper stuff to fund my last nihonto purchase. Good thing about replicas is you can always get another replacement where as historical pieces are one of a kind.

 

Thanks for sharing your collection, it's inspiring. That's another problem with acquiring European swords. Newcomers always think Nihonto as relatively expensive compared to what they're used to purchasing, but when you look at a good European sword of equivalent historical value, the cost is much higher. This isn't only limited to European swords, but also Islamic and especially Chinese swords. Collecting these beauties is much more difficult and you need deeper pockets than collecting Nihonto...

[ancientnoob]

@John,

 

I was gunning for some exceptions.... :lol:

 

Nathan

[Kai-Gunto]

I got these old danish naval swords.