Good Tsuba on Good Friday?

[kaigunair]

Just received this tsuba in the mail. Yes, a fleebay purchase that was EMS'd from Japan. Yes, I am not a tetsu collector, and so would really love to know whether this is a modern day repro, late meiji hamamono, repatinated, other condition problems I should have picked up on.

 

As a disclaimer, I had been looking for a tsuba with this theme to match a tsuka I picked up a few years back (pictured below). Absent a yamagane/shibuishi version, this was one of the more pleasant designs in iron I've come across. Why was I drawn to the tsuka? Well, the two yamagane menuki interested me. They and the tsuba theme probably represents some connection to construction or carpentry (a Japanese John Henry type reference would be interesting too ). What I'm 99.999% sure it did not represent was anything related to Kakure Krishtians at the time it was made. No please! However, from my perspective, it wouldn't have been such a bad theme to have, if I had been a Kakure Krishtian at the time: the two menuki conveniently aligning with the palm areas of both hand when held. Somewhat of both an outward sign, and inward reminder when the sword was drawn. The age of the tsuka (no idea about the tsuba) would appear to be momoyama/early edo, so somewhat when there was a need to be "hidden".

 

Any assistance on the theme or whether the tsuba is "legit" would be much appreciated. Not even sure what school it falls into...

 

(maybe the tsuba is just a wagon wheel....?)

 

Thanks in advance!

[kaigunair]

More pics:

 

Have a Good Friday nmb members!

[John A Stuart]

One of my favourite themes for tsuba. The Dharmachakhra with the Twelve Nidānas. John

[Pete Klein]

Looks to be poorly crafted, possibly of recent 'vintage'. Look at the variations in thickness in the mimi and the patina which is consistent into the sukashi. I have my doubts as to the depth of age of this item.

[kaigunair]

Thanks John. That could definitely be the theme. 12 spokes for the 12 foundations? Any idea of school or possible age?

[kaigunair]

some examples labeled as "wheel":

 

identified as "shoami":

 

unidentified school:

 

old ebay auction:

[kaigunair]

Looks to be poorly crafted, possibly of recent 'vintage'. Look at the variations in thickness in the mimi and the patina which is consistent into the sukashi. I have my doubts as to the depth of age of this item.

 

Good points pete. Thanks. I was thinking the same myself. I did see the middle of the sukashi areas had a line of rust, but I do not know how much or how little tetsu tsuba should have. I do think it might have been mounted until pretty recently based on wear on the nakago ana and inside of the kozuka ana. Will try to get better photos to show the line of oxidation. How recent is recent?

 

Much appreciated.

 

Pictures using macro plus extension (Ambient daylight plus direct sunlight shots):

[kaigunair]

[Pete Klein]

The color of the sekigane is reddish (which equates to recent or refurbished work), and the sukashi walls show little age. I have no idea of how old this is but it's just not Edo workmanship to my eye. Of course, I could be incorrect, but I sort of doubt it. What bothers me most is the lack of precision in the carving of the piece. It's just not 'right' to my eye.

[Soshin]

One of my favourite themes for tsuba. The Dharmachakhra with the Twelve Nidānas. John

 

Hi Junichi-sama,

 

The design is not a Dharmachakra (rinpo 法輪) "Dharma Wheel" because it has twelve spokes and not eight. Why this is important is because in Buddhism there is the "Noble Eightfold Path" and not the "Noble Twelvefold Path". Hindu, Jain, and Sikh Dharmachakra often have many more spokes of the wheel or other symbolic changes. If you look at numerous antique examples the Buddhist Dharmachakra designs in tsuba always have eight spokes of the wheel. I know this by association as my wife is a lay Buddhist Dharma teacher in a school of Japanese Buddhism. I also personally characterise and associate my religious views as Buddhist. Attached is an example taken from a issue of the NBTHK Token Bijutsu. It is a Jyuo level Ko-Shoami tsuba from the Muromachi Period with a Buddhist Dharmachakra design done in ji-sukashi (地透). Your tsuba I think the openwork design is likely a wagon wheel.

Here is a Ko-Katchushi example also attributed to the Muromachi Period from Sasano's first book on Sukashi Tsuba.

In terms of the age of the tsuba I agree with Pete K. it looks like a modern tsuba to me. Sorry to say the patination of the iron was also done poorly in my opinion along with the how the sukashi was cut as noted my Pete K.

[Bugyotsuji]

Are you thinking as with your menuki, nails, so tsuba may equal 12 nails, possibly indicating Twelve Stations of the Cross, therefore association with Good Friday?

 

Genji-guruma often had twelve spokes.

https://www.google.com/search?q=%E9%8D% ... F&tbm=isch

[kaigunair]

Thanks everyone for the input. Still a Good Friday, not so much a good Tsuba. These tetsu's are trickey ones indeed.

 

Pete, thanks for the second look. Modern it is in my book now. But a good lesson learned.

 

David, appreciate the detailed explanation and insight into Buddhism. Does lend more support to the conclusion it is a wheel based designed. Some of the other Tsubas I had been picking up had connections to Buddhism, so it would have been complimentary if this one was also of the type. But makes sense that it is only a wheel.

 

Piers, I think the link is the clincher that it is in all likelihood a 12 spoke wagon wheel. And definitely see possible symbolism in the number of spokes (if seen as nails) and the number 12. Makes me a little more disappointed it appear that this is a modern made Tsuba. My tsuka is now still in need for an appropriate edo period mate.

[Kurikata]

An exemple from my collection with 8 strokes and from my perpective representing a wather wheel . Made in iron with a shakudo mimi. Size : 3 1/8 (80 mm)

[TosoguCz]

Although this tsuba probably refers just to a wheel, there are buddhist wheels with different numbers of felloes with different meanings.

For example: http://www.sacred-texts.com/shi/igj/igj09.htm

And as I understand, also wheel with a 12 felloes is called dharmachakra.

[christianmalterre]

rather bad Tsuba on an bad Monday!-eh?

 

this Tsuba certainly is not old!

it looks very amateurishly done-in fact it is amateurish!

Pete stated some points already...

shall this be an patina or rather an black lacquer sheet???

either contemporarily made...

or

an old Tsuba refurbished,done some cleaning,done some rough filing,done some extra work like an unfitting plug-well? and finally coloured....

these Japanese.....LOL!.....

(Hey Curran-here we are again!)

 

Christian

[kaigunair]

Wow, is it really that bad?

 

Based on Pete's review, I'm readily able to accept that it is a post edo, "modern" tsuba. That the patina is modern. That the design isn't very tight. And sure, the plug isn't that great at all.

 

But now, maybe its been lacquered? Or is an older tsuba that's been re-carved? And the design is totally amateurish and glaringly apparent.

 

ok: begin rant:

 

I did show this tsuba to a few members of the local club, tsuba collectors, for some in-hand opinions. None mentioned lacquering. None stated that design/carving was really bad. The comments I received from them about the inside of the rim was that there was some age based on the level of rust. I had to mentioned to them that I was considering it modern because of the patina and lack of more aging inside the sukashi. And I pointed out some areas that indicated that the design wasn't that well done. Based on some of the comments here, I was surprised that no one immediately said "modern" and "poor workmanship".

 

As for the carving itself, yes, I agree that in-between the "spokes", those square shape cutouts aren't very tight, and in macro shots, the spokes themselves aren't perfect. But whoever did this took the time to angle each of the horizontal tops of the "T" so that the tops slope at an angle to the rim. The smith also filed each of the vertical edges of the long stroke in the "T", so there are actually 8 sides to each spoke. I've seen much simpler sukashi work, where it is just "cut out". In fact, some of the examples post of other wheel examples are good examples of this. I am really wondering what I'm missing that screams this is cr*p workmanship.

 

To be honest, with the exception of the ko-shoami example David posted, this example seems more detailed than all the others. Not that the details themselves were done very well, but at least they were put in there. I actually prefer this style of rendition of a wheel and spokes to all the other examples posted (except the ko-shoami) - I just wish it was Edo period or older. So I am bothered that I am missing something in the execution of this design which should indicate "really bad" work.

 

It could be that the club members I approached are being way too kind. Or the opposite is occurring here on the boards.

 

-end rant-

 

I do appreciate all the comments and eyes, but its a bit frustrating to not get consistent responses.

[Brian]

Junichi,

A lot of it comes down to the limitations of "examining" an item via photos on the net. Something we constantly remind people.

 

Brian

[TosoguCz]

Wow, is it really that bad?

 

None stated that design/carving was really bad. The comments I received from them about the inside of the rim was that there was some age based on the level of rust. I had to mentioned to them that I was considering it modern because of the patina and lack of more aging inside the sukashi. And I pointed out some areas that indicated that the design wasn't that well done. Based on some of the comments here, I was surprised that no one immediately said "modern" and "poor workmanship".

 

As for the carving itself, yes, I agree that in-between the "spokes", those square shape cutouts aren't very tight, and in macro shots, the spokes themselves aren't perfect. But whoever did this took the time to angle each of the horizontal tops of the "T" so that the tops slope at an angle to the rim. The smith also filed each of the vertical edges of the long stroke in the "T", so there are actually 8 sides to each spoke. I've seen much simpler sukashi work, where it is just "cut out". In fact, some of the examples post of other wheel examples are good examples of this. I am really wondering what I'm missing that screams this is cr*p workmanship.

 

 

I do appreciate all the comments and eyes, but its a bit frustrating to not get consistent responses.

 

After examining the photos I can say yes, the workmanship is really bad. Only thing which looks rather naturally are punch marks for sekigane. But also, the style reminds me some modern works.

The rest of tsuba is terribly done. Inconsistent edge chamfering, uneven cut-out walls, angles and inner shapes, crooked sawing lines etc.

Maybe was used a Japanese tsuba for this, but it can't be considered as a Japanese piece anymore.

[christianmalterre]

 

bad day!... you had(sorrowly!)...accept and learn...

keep you out from Ebay!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

(how many times.....how many times already got this spoken out?)

we do have an really great forum here!

Many many really nice and charming beauties ben offered....

 

(sellers do certainly not offer out of reason!)

we are all collectors-no serious collector would offer rubbish here (me do suppose instantly)-Not?)

 

Christian

[Jean]

Christian is right:

 

So many jewels offered by members at so low price.

[kaigunair]

Ebay or NMB, modern or old, the original point of my post/rant is being missed.

 

I'm trying to wrap my head around why this design itself is so poor. Forget that it was an ebay listing for a moment as it is a distracting bias. I did not buy this thinking it was some $10k tsuba which I could flip, and it may still make for a nice iado set up if I ever get into that discipline (I just wouldn't want to use the tsuka it was intended to match).

 

Roman, I appreciate your clarification points. But are you saying that you think there is a possibility that this might have been made from an older tsuba? It's comments like those that color the rest of the opinion given. Also, some, not all, of the points you brought up indicate you may be applying machibori techniques and standards to tetsu tsuba. Example: Looking at the sasano katsushi example david posted, close study indicates it isn't as symmetrical as it appears. Lacquering is another questionable comment, but at least I can probably test that one out...anyone know what chemical removes urushi without messing with patina (turpentine?).

 

Anyhow, I readily admit this tsuba is no great work of art and modern made. Right now, all its bad qualities appear much more nuanced in my eye, which troubles me to no end if its as bad as people say it is. I'm trying to internalize what makes it so apparent for the next time something come up for sale on the NMB, ebay, pawn shop, Token Kai, etc...

 

Everyone is entitled to their opinion, but this is me trying to sort it all out.

[TosoguCz]

But are you saying that you think there is a possibility that this might have been made from an older tsuba?

Maybe, but as long as I am looking on it the possibility becomes smaller.

 

Looking at the sasano katsushi example david posted, close study indicates it isn't as symmetrical as it appears.

I don't know what tsuba you mean, but on yours all parts are crooked, it's obvious that it was made by an unpractised hand and eye. Starting seppa dai, felloes, removing around the rim etc.

Japanese works have often some inequalities but the overall looks differently... consistent. Of course there were also less skilled craftsmen which works weren't good. But this is different case.

 

 

Lacquering is another questionable comment, but at least I can probably test that one out...anyone know what chemical removes urushi without messing with patina (turpentine?).

After dry, the urushi is probably very resistant to any solvent.

Probably only heat can burn it out. But you would have to repatinate it completely anyway.

[kaigunair]

Hi Roman,

Thanks for the second/third look and comments. Will give them some thought.