Remarkable & puzzling tachi

[Ken-Hawaii]

My mentor has just acquired a most interesting tachi, & we spent three hours this evening trying to puzzle out school & smith.

 

The sugata is Nanbokucho, overall length is 95 cm, hacho 68.1 cm, sori 1.5 cm, blade width at machi 3.0 cm, iori-mune. The omote hamon is yahazu-midare, & ura hamon is gunome-midare. There is literally a river of chikei running uninterrupted the entire length of the blade, with sungashi & inazuma, nie-deki, with sumigane & uzumaki. The fukura seems a little flat. The nakago is ubu, with two mekugi-ana, & with tachi mei that neither of us can read because of really nasty rust.

 

I'm including a number of photos, & would appreciate any comments & ideas on categorizing this remarkable blade.

 

Aloha,

Ken

 

[Geraint]

Fools rush in, they say so here goes.

 

Nambokucho sugata but 68 cms and ubu? The chikei immediately makes one think of Norishige, but there were others who produced it too. Have a look at this, http://www.nbthk-ab.org/Kantei/kantei1_answer.htm However this one is almost the same nagasa but o suriage. For a Norishige ko dachi check this one out, the images are little use but might be worth an e mail to the owner, http://www3.telus.net/sword/sword/index ... 0items.htm

 

On the other hand this chikei seems pretty strong and rather too overt. I have seen something like this in shinshinto so the possibility that this is utsushi mono suggest itself so have a look at this, viewtopic.php?f=4&t=18327&p=164196

 

Probably no help at all but I enjoyed looking at the sword so thank you anyway.

 

 

All the best.

[Marius]

Awful polish, habuchi is not visible, hadori finish is very sloppy. From what I can see hamon seems nioi-based, not exactly typical for earlier blades. Not chikei, but layers, probably exposed by acid.

 

This came from daimyou54eb on eBay - he is known to carry rather low-end items, but occasionally also good stuff (I recall a story about a good Hizen sword bought from him). But that is not a kantei point

 

Interesting puzzle indeed, but in the current state of polish I would not jump to any conclusions. Do I see the remnant of a signature below the lower mekugi ana?

[Brian]

I agree it is not Chikei. I think it is other steel mixed in. I have it on my 1912 Enju katana when they were experimenting with steels I think.

Interesting sword though, think it would polish up nicely. Nice sugata.

 

Brian

[Guido]

I would call this Hadatatsu/Hadamono.

 

P.S.: No disrespect, Ken, but if your "mentor" bought this sword from one of the most notorious eBay sellers, and even doesn't know what it is, it might be time to look for another mentor ...

[Marius]

Guido's evil twin has struck again

 

Harsh, but fair.

[Guido]

Harsh, but fair.

Nah, my twin is still securely locked up - I really didn't mean to be harsh, but there are quite a few self-proclaimed "sensei" (just ask the Canadian and Ohio forumites, e.g.) who are/were able to fool people for decades.

[cabowen]

I agree with the others-shinshinto or later....

[drbvac]

Kanemitsu or Kanemoto for sure :D :D :D :D :D :D :lol: :lol:

[nagamaki - Franco]

Hi Ken,

 

Sorry to pile-on , am in the Shinshinto copy camp. As for the nakago I'd say a fairly sketchy attempt to fake age is what we're looking at. Regardless, a good sword to bring up for topic to put a good dose of cynicism into the minds of all those wanting nihonto.

[drbvac]

Speaking of experimenting with steel that was sort of the consensus on this blade:

[David Flynn]

Chinese copy?

[Ted Tenold]

No disrespect intended to anyone or anyone's mentor, but I wouldn't rule out Saiha either.

[Marius]

Ted,

 

based on...? (not that I disagree, just asking)

[Ted Tenold]

The strong black chikei like lines can be seen with retempers. Also the indistinct habuchi, inconsistent and hajimi looking yakiba, the otherwise glassy and faded looking hada, the blistery and dry looking nakago.

 

Not saying it's absolute, and the polish certainly isn't helping matters, but those are my observations from the images.

[Marius]

Thanks for this explanation :-) I appreciate it

[Ken-Hawaii]

I have avoided making any comments on the remarks so far, as I've been awaiting the results of the meetings between my mentor & two rather well-regarded experts. So with minimum comments on my part, here is what has been found so far:

 

My mentor first met with a friend of ours Friday afternoon who used to head up an NBTHK team, & who agreed that the blade's sugata is late Kamakura or early Nambokucho, & thinks that it's probably Soshu, ubu or near ubu, extraordinary workmanship excluding the possibility of utsushi. He agreed that Masamune chikei he's seen have never been linear and so long, & that Masamune chikei are usually thicker and more easily seen. He also felt that the differential between the motohaba and sakihaba was less in Masamune tachi he had seen than in this sword. He saw up to a 5 character mei that was partly intentionally erased, and disagreed that the last character was 'mune', as Robert Cole had thought. But he couldn't decipher the mei. He suggested having Bob Benson look at the blade.

 

So this afternoon, Bob Benson immediately focused on the nakago, and unequivocally pronounced that the remaining Kanji read "Yasutsuna." He then set about analyzing various features of the tachi, specifically hada and kitae using the NBTHK's Juyo Nado Zufu. The object here was to find good photos of "Matsukawa hada," which this tachi doesn't have. Failing this last, he remarked that the kitae (which my mentor judges in the supreme category) was fairly distinctive. He felt that he had seen it "somewhere" before, and then he said that it was typical of Masamune, Go Yoshihiro, and Norishige. He then began looking at that division of the Juyo Nado Zufu and found several examples of similar kitae.

 

At the end of 2 hours, there were at least as many questions as when they started. Bob made several points clear: He felt that the Yasutsuna signature was gimei and contrived by partial erasure. He surmised briefly at one point that it could even be a made-up Shinshinto fake, but backed quickly down from this when he was challenged with the point about the superb kitae. The only firm ground he approached was that the kissaki is distinctive to the elite Soshu smiths, and that he saw several examples of similar kitae among their examples in the Nado Zufu. So, at the end of the discussion, commitment in the kantei was avoided, and the only progress in identification was towards elite Soshu, late Kamakura or early Nambokucho.

 

Ken

[Toryu2020]

Ken-

What do you see when looking at the mune above the kissaki and an och or two below that?

- t

[Toryu2020]

Och!?!

Sorry, should read inch

[shibeni]

Hello,

the same story and seller as with my nice..Koto... Bizen Tachi... Some experts sugest to submit it to shinsha others thinks it is superb quality but newly made and altered...and I have to live with that..

 

Bojan S.

[Geraint]

Truly it is said, "A sword in the hand is worth two on the screen." Looking forward to hearing about the shinsa for both.

All the best

[Brian]

Sounds like a good candidate for a full polish. Only after that will you/he/we be able to come to a better opinion I guess.

Holding thumbs for him. Always glad to be wrong when the outcome is better than expected.

 

Brian

[cabowen]

I guess it is one of those "you had to be there" things as I find nothing supreme about the kitae from the photos...

 

Looks very similar to this:

 

 

or this:

 

 

But I think these are better kitae...Any guesses what these are?

[Ray Singer]

Looks very similar to this:

 

[attachment=0]3.jpg[/attachment]

 

 

I'm in agreement with Chris, this resembles some shinsakuto I have seen. Especially similar to one Enomoto family piece I owned. The kitae also greatly resembles a tachi I had which later papered to Ikkansai Yoshihiro.

 

- Ray

[cabowen]

Here are a few Yoshihiro blades....also quite similar but I think they have better jigane, actually:

 

 

[Darcy]

Nakago kind of looks a bit glassy, but I know from experience different lighting and camera settings you're going to get some stuff that doesn't look right.

 

I don't know about Shinshinto but the polish has dummied up a lot of stuff. When it's messed up like this it makes it a lot harder to draw adequate conclusions.

 

Norishige shouldn't be brought up in regards to this blade. It is easy to go there but if you held several or many you wouldn't. It is not in the same zone of quality.

 

This is a Norishige... though he has several different types of forging in the hada over time, the above blade does not qualify. Bob Benson of course has, and has an excellent opinion to which I would defer, but it's coming through the filter of someone else's impressions.

 

I don't think this sword posted is elite Soshu den, but you should have it polished and then judge after. I will show some more photos of matsukawa hada.

 

[Darcy]

The previous sword is a Juyo Norishige. This one is very high resolution so I will link it for clicking, and has similar construction in the jihada. This sword has similarities with Go Yoshihiro in the monouchi and kissaki, and a bit like Masamune in the hamon, but is strongly characteristic of Norishige through the ji and the entanglement of hamon with hataraki in the ji. This is Tokubetsu Juyo and one of the best works of Norishige, if not the best.

 

http://www.nihonto.ca/norishige/page-l.jpg

 

[Darcy]

This is an example of matsukawa hada which is a different structure than the previous two examples. The previous two have bright glowing ji-nie flowing throughout. Norishige bases his work in Ko-Bizen and Ko-Hoki, moreso than Masamune. Sometimes his work has very tight jihada but not very often. But this type of matsukawa hada features black chikei without the glowing ji nie, is a tighter pattern and is more like Ko-Bizen. This sword was found with Honami Koson papers and since I think has gone through to Juyo.

[Darcy]

This last one is Tokubetsu Hozon Norishige, and features the tight jigane with black chikei of the previous example mixed with areas of glowing ji nie layered on top like the first two.

 

God knows how he did this stuff.

 

Nobody knows.

[Darcy]

Also I will note that if it is Nanbokucho period there are almost no "elite" Soshu pieces in long form from this period left. The great works of Yukimitsu, Norishige, Go, Masamune, etc. are all Kamakura. Maybe a smattering of Masamune works are in the beginning of the Nanbokucho. Sadamune has a good number of Nanbokucho period long form works. I don't think you have a Sadamune here. After that the main line of Soshu has almost all the long swords destroyed.

 

There is Soshu influenced stuff of all kinds of levels of influence, from close to 100% down to almost nothing, up through the Muromachi period. The most Soshu like out of the main line is Hasebe and these are very rare in long form and this is not a Hasebe by the construction or the hamon or ji.

 

I think if you summarize everything, and include period as being hopefully Nanbokucho, if you have something that makes you think someone was looking at Norishige and trying to knock on the door but couldn't get into the house, you end up with Uda.

 

One other note is that "elite Soshu" is filled with nie. Nie nie nie. Nie. Everywhere. Even when you don't think you are looking at them you probably are, and my close in photos usually show swaths of nie like someone had red ones blue ones and green ones in a bucket and poured them on the sword. Hataraki in the hamon should go to the ha. This was pointed out to me by Kenji Mishina in nothing how this falsely attributed "Masamune" I had was not koto Soshu. I look at the ha in your sword, the photos are not detailed, but I don't see the hataraki going to the ha. Reinhard identified it as Dewa-Daijo Kunimichi and this would probably be correct. I thought (hoped) it to be Shizu and the Horikawa school made efforts to copy Soshu, in particular Shizu and Sadamune as targets.

 

http://nihontomessageboard.com/nmb/view ... 24&start=0

 

Consult also with the Ko-Bizen Tomonari on my site to see what the Soshu smiths were trying to emulate with nie. This is mostly lost with the passing of the Soshu greats. You don't even see it really in Shinkai trying to copy Go, but when you look at one of the styles of Go that would appear to have a simple hamon, when you look down to the ha it is covered over with sheets of sparkling nie, like overlapping waves coming in to the beach off of a mostly calm body of water.

 

Have Bob fix the polish and then try the photos again.