Tsuba rust removal

[terry8441]

I know the answer is DON'T! lol And I don't plan too either. I just purchased an old rusty tsuba, but with this one - it's rustiness was one of the features that actually attracted me to the piece. It was created, it lived, it is decaying and now it's returning into the silence, from which it came. (ran into my first case of tsuba snobbery on this one too, lol , Oh well I'm not an investor or simply an art collector - I'm a philosopher!) But my question is on basic rust removal, so this may be better suited for the metallurgists among us. Why do I never see reverse current/electrolysis as a suggestion?

Thanks for the feedback,

Terry

[hxv]

Terry,

 

Electrolysis is not recommended because it will remove rust AND patina (which is what we want to keep), and because it cannot be precisely controlled.

 

Hoanh

[Antti]

An easy way to achieve something is the toothbrush - soft soap - approach. I recently spent some time brushing a lighty rusted tsuba and quite a bit of the rust came off, turning the water filthy brown several times.

 

The more experienced guys can give you better advice, just my two cents.

 

Also:

http://www.japaneseswordindex.com/tsuba/tsubacln.htm

 

Good luck.

[Soshin]

Terry,

 

Electrolysis is not recommended because it will remove rust AND patina (which is what we want to keep), and because it cannot be precisely controlled.

 

Hoanh

 

 

Hi Terry,

 

I can't agree more with Hoanh comment. There is no short cuts to remove rust from a tsuba. Use a bit of dried bamboo, old ivory, bone, or antler depending on how deep and hard the rust is to remove and a white cotton rag. The goal should not be to make it look new but prevent additional decay and ultimate destruction of the tsuba!

[Marius]

Terry,

 

any pictures?

[terry8441]

Just to reiterate, I do not want or intened to try to do any rust removal on the one I recently bought. I didn't want to guess at the possible answers but I figured it had to do with possible damage to the patina. I've used the reverse current on things like motorcycle tanks and other items that I wasn't concerned with damaging the remaining metal structure. It's also been used (by professional curators) on a few 8 Reale I have from various recoveries spanish shipwrecks. But in the case of silver, cleaning does not affect the value. (well cleaning tarnish doesn't but I would never remove the discolored corrosion or concreation of an item that was sunken for great periods of time as that adds character and is a very good indication of the time spent at the bottom of the sea)

The tsuba I bought is a train wreck, lol & I love it. I bought it to care for it and the best way to do that, in my opinion, is to honor its decay. Ashes to ashes, dust to dust. I hope when I am old and fragile, someone does the same for me. But for your viewing pleasure -

[hxv]

Terry,

 

The tsuba seems to have been damaged by fire/high heat. I would say the workmanship is below average. Nonetheless, enjoy it for what it is - an honest antique tsuba.

 

EDIT: Yikes, on a second look, I'm contradicting myself. It looks cast to me.

 

Regards,

Hoanh

[terry8441]

Right? I'm seriously new to this - but it almost looked like something cast, that was then destroyed even worse (acid, fire, etc) to make look older. Something interesting about it to me and for the very few dollars it cost I thought - lets take a closer look at this and see what I can possibly learn about the subject.

[Marius]

Something interesting about it to me and for the very few dollars it cost I thought - lets take a closer look at this and see what I can possibly learn about the subject.

 

Old rusted objects are interesting, no doubt. You can't learn anything from this tsuba (whether cast or not), sorry. Buy some books, educate yourself and you will see the wonderful world of real tsuba.

[Soshin]

Old rusted objects are interesting, no doubt. You can't learn anything from this tsuba (whether cast or not), sorry. Buy some books, educate yourself and you will see the wonderful world of real tsuba.

 

 

Hi Mariusz,

 

I have been trying to tell Terry this over a long course of emails. I just hope he takes the advice and stop wasting his money. In my opinion any amount of money wasted on a tsuba like this is way too much period. Saving the money and later buying a book sounds to me like a much better idea in my opinion.

 

P.S. This has been bugging me for over a week now since Terry sent me photos of this tsuba via email. Sorry for the rant everyone.

[terry8441]

I promise not to start tapping into the mutual funds to support this endeavor. :D Having this bad example in hand, is very informative though. Imperfection can be just a valuable a teacher as perfection. Looking at the metal and trying to determine "what makes this happen" is an interesting puzzle for me and it's much cheaper than therapy, lol By learning what makes this bad – you are also learning what makes this good.

 

David, I’m reminded of the exchange in a previous thread where, initially you replied with all confidence regarding the quality of a particular tsuba in saying “From what I see in the photos the surface of Tosho style tsuba is not heavy with corrosion. The surface treatment is called (ishime-ji 石目地) and it was a technique used of by many Edo Period tsubako to simulate a ground stone surface. This uneven surface was likely done before it was patinated a process of controlled corrosion to allow ferrous oxides [iron(II) oxide] to form on the surface. I have seen this on many Edo Period Tosho style tsuba. This is just my opinion from looking at the photos but I would need to see the tsuba in hand to confirm.

 

Only to have the expert reply “I'm afraid I have to disagree with regard to the surface of the Tosho style tsuba. To my eye this does in fact look exactly like the result of neglect and rust pitting. The rust has been removed and the piece repatinated but the evidence remains……..And yes, I know I haven't examined the piece in hand but I do know a thing or two about steel, corrosion and texturing the stuff

 

Now I only point this out to actually agree with you in a way. You can observe and learn much more from an item, having it in hand. I started this thread acknowledging the terrible quality of this tsuba.

Photos, books, resources, video –all great tools. But I have learned a great deal from this one inexpensive item about quality and the lack thereof. That’s not a waste in my book. But then again, I’ve never had to worry about such things.

Now, I have purchased today another tsuba from a trusted member here and when it arrives I will post pics here for your continued constructive criticism. It is intended to be constructive, isn’t it? lol

[Marius]

Terry,

 

imagine you are trying to learn about painting from this... Well, you can't. You need good tsuba. Well, you do need books to stop spending (any) money on pieces of corroded iron.

[Antti]

Terry, for whatever it's worth, if you love that tsuba, then love it, cherish it and embrace it. The main thing is that you enjoy it.

 

I have an old coffee machine which I love passionately. His name is, loosely translated, mr. Purr. Doesn't really make that good coffee, its ugly, and on its last legs. Every coffee enthusiast would be disgusted. I still love it, which is the thing that matters.

 

If you are planning to start a collection, then perhaps that's another thing, and requires the effort mentioned by so many others.

[Marius]

Antti,

 

I recall that you have some good tsuba

[Antti]

... but the coffee maker really is terrible

[terry8441]

Mariuszk,

It's Cecilia Gimenez’s bastardized “Ecce Homo.” Widely known as “Beast Jesus,” the Spanish octogenatian’s botched restoration of a 19th-century fresco.

And you can learn alot, from it.

(1)I have spent less than $67.00 on my first 2 tsuba combined ($10 & $57). Everyone please stop worrying about my finances.

(2)Sudying how fakes are made, or how old pieces are manipulated to look even older, what 'bad repair' work looks like, shoe polish patina, etc are all helpful things to know when learning what not to look for. What does acid do to metal? What does electrolysis do to metal, what does accelerated decomposition look like? Why do an overly oily or dry tsuba feel like? What does fire, Ice, borax do to steel?

(3) Any thread that starts with Rust Removal - that leads to talk of 'My favorite coffee" is Awesome!

I want some of that coffee, lol My Sicilian roots would love it!

 

Terry

[watsonmil]

Dear Terry,

The tsuba you pictured is not cast, ... but rather a disintegrated rusted tsuba perhaps subjected to fire and far beyond restoration. If you care to see what your tsuba depicted originally .......... here is an example I own with ( raised design ) takaniku-bori of a peasant trying to lead a bull. Ko-Nara school in Ko-Hamano style circ. mid Edo. I only have a photo of it on hand right now and since it is boxed, ... I can only hope the detail is clear enough.

 

Bull is iron with gold horns eyes and nose, ... rope is inlaid raised gold, .... peasant is inlaid raised silver, ... other highlights are inlaid raised gold. Size is 68 mm X 64 mm. Reverse is a raised iron sheaf of rice with an inlaid silver and copper sickle . Other highlights are in inlaid gold. The workmanship is excellent and is exemplified by the tiny hole in the end of the sickle handle ( for hanging ) which can only be seen using an eye loop.

 

... Ron Watson

[Stephen]

Ron

i think the theme is from zen: on the ten bulls. see catch bull at four

 

http://www.expressionsofspirit.com/10bulls/tenbulls.htm

[kaigunair]

For the sake of accuracy, the example painting would be a better lesson in proper restoration, and more appropriate for people wanting to restore their own nihonto (or pay the SF "sword society" or a guy in santa cruz a few hundred buck to do theirs)...*yikes*

 

But what's more troubling is how many people are willing to pay to go and see it! What does it say about a society that loves to rubber neck (or youtube) traffic wrecks?

 

Terry,

 

imagine you are trying to learn about painting from this... Well, you can't. You need good tsuba. Well, you do need books to stop spending (any) money on pieces of corroded iron.

[attachment=0]_62450357_restoredfresco.jpg[/attachment]

[terry8441]

Watsonmil,

Thanks for posting the pics of your tsuba! Very nice. It was when I received this one in hand that I thought to ask the question about electrolysis because of the condition, color and extreme dryness of the iron. I wasn't sure if this was due to possibly having been through a fire, was a terrible example of a restoration attempt gone bad, was an outright fake, or just the result of time and neglect.

I'm glad to hear your opinion that it isn't cast. It then lines up quite nicely with my philosophical approach to these items (mocked by 1 particular member – with at least a declared Not So Empty Mind) and as such has now found a final resting place.

I think part of the ‘concern’ people have is due to the fact that perhaps they are judging the quality, or lack thereof, of this piece based on the standards they hold for their own collections. I’m not drawn to these as simply valuable pieces of art. (clearly, lol) So for a moment everyone, take off the art collector hat and try on the hat of philosophy. I’ll repost my short philosophical take on these items for the sake of repetition and also honestly because it will have the same reaction for some as if I had dragged my fingernails across a chalkboard. This was in a prior post – in a reply to Mr. Hallam regarding a comment he made.

 

Ford H. what a fantastic quote “It also allows us to perhaps become more comfortable with the notion of impermanence, a major theme in Japanese Art but one we, in the West, are often at odds with.”

 

The tsuba, to me, represents so much. Certainly, as individual pieces of art they hold their own. They are a wonderful reflection of the makers’ craftsmanship and personality. They contain a wealth of information that has the potential to reveal the who, what, when & where of their existence.

Just an awesome balance of form and function; and therein lies what I am drawn to, the function.

The tsuba, protects. The tsuba by itself is to me, incomplete in a way. It’s a bodyguard without a client. A philosophy to which I can relate. Not that I am incomplete- I’m just enjoying a bit of well-deserved rest, lol. But, I do find myself longing for the days gone past from time to time. (the notion of impermanence) As we are all bits of energy and molecules vibrating and resonating in this universe, I wonder if these fine protectors find themselves, in their own way, longing for the sound of the blade returning to the koiguchi. I don’t mind too much seeing one a bit ‘tired’, it’s just time for that well deserved rest.

 

Thank you all for sharing your interests, knowledge, skills and abilities

Terry

[watsonmil]

Dear Terry,

Discussing philosophy with these die hard perfectionists will get you nothing but rebuttal. We are all impermanent as are the objects we behold as necessities of life or .... art. Some seek only the finest examples of kodogu or cars. My personal tastes are to acquire the very best examples of the various Japanese artifacts .... I hesitate on using the word ART, as the idea that these Japanese tsuba, swords, tanegashima, kiseru were designed as art works is quite incidental to their intended purpose.

 

I have a friend who collects old west type firearms, ... the rustier the better. He feels that they represent the true feeling of the old west ( and its impermanence ). To most collectors he is a fool to waste money on anything but the finest examples of Colts, Winchesters, Remingtons, etc, but to him the essence is the FEELING ( emotions ) he gets from well used artifacts of an era long past NEVER TO RETURN.

 

Now the fact that I try to avoid rust by no means makes me smarter or better. We simply have a different philosophy. He is happy in his world and I am happy in mine. It does not mean that I cannot or will not respect his perception of what is worthy. I hope you get the meaning of my ramble even if others do not.

 

... Ron Watson

[terry8441]

Watsonmil,

I appreciate your insight as well as your taking the time to give it. If you ever find yourself in Texas, let me buy you a cup of the best rust free coffee we can find! lol

 

Terry

[Stephen]

Ron

 

corrected my post, dont know why i put down Pete. Anyway the theme of both tsuba is catch bull at four see the above link.

[watsonmil]

Dear Stephen,

Thank you for the link, .... I am in full agreement with you. As for the racoon, ... I know what I'd do with him given that around here they are considered pure vermin.

 

... Ron Watson

[terry8441]

Stephen,

I too, thank you for the link you posted. The tsuba I am awaiting is much better quality and very closely connected to #9 Reaching The Source.

[Antti]

Terry, if I may ask, what is your... ambition concerning tsuba? Perhaps you have mentioned it but I cannot recall. Are you planning collecting, or just getting an item with philosophical / historical value or is this just one of those things that one has to do for personal amusement? I can relate to all of them, just wanted to know what you are planning to do, as your tsuba count is going to be three soon.

 

By the way that "bodyguard without a client" expression was great.

[terry8441]

Antti,

Sure, a quick orientation to the distances of protection. Rifle, Pistol, Knife. By the time you get to Knife, it’s extremely personal and you demonstrate your resolve in a manner unlike the other two. To use an edged weapon as your primary, requires qualities few achieve. This is why you find the samurai and other noble swordsmen often very well rounded in the arts, poetry and philosophy. Even my barbarian ancenstors, the Celts, were warrior poets. (Philosophies of the blade – mega condensed version).

In one of my posts or messages I referred to the fact that my first tsuba, found me. I didn’t find it, it found me. It was at an estate sale, sitting on the back of a folding table in the garage apartment and it was unmarked. I barely saw it and I swear it said to me “hey, no no don’t go –come here don’t leave me behind, I’m like you, we’re connected” I picked it up and paid the nice lady $10.00

A great portion of my life has been in the service and protection of others. (Not the 5 branches of the military to be clear, but I don’t elaborate further- it’s a personal & professional courtesy ) In that capacity I relate to the function of the tsuba in protecting the swordsman from the blade he wields. I have been all three at times. The Hand that wields, the Blade that harms and the Guard that protects. For last several years, until very recently, I have been the guard that protects.

I’m a bit tattered and rough around the edges now as a result, so in that way I related to the piece laying there on the table disconnected from its other elements. The rusty one I just bought too, was a bit of an old guard orphanage buy, plus it really looked like someone had tried to either restore and repair it and did a terrible job and it was an inexpensive opportunity to have it in hand and see what if anything I could learn about how someone might fake a piece or age an old tsuba to make it look even older that it was. The third I’ve purchased and am waiting for now, also found me in a way. There was a post by a NMB member selling several tsuba of another late members estate. In scrolling through the images the elemental scene depicted caught my eye. I thought, “wouldn’t it be nice to sit beneath that tree and listen to the brook bubbling past?”

I wouldn’t say I’m collecting tsuba as much as I would say I am relating to them. One of the downsides to my life experiences is, no family. One day, my things will be scattered on tables being sold to strangers. Someone will ask “who’s the man in the picture”? and the answer will be “ I don’t know, but it’s a nice frame”

I take home the pieces that speak to me, and in doing so, in my odd strange little way, I do the best I can to honor them and let them know that for now at least, they are not forgotten.

 

I have no idea if that makes sense to anyone other than me. But there it is.

[Stephen]

T

 

I understand your speak and find it refreshing.

[terry8441]

Thank You Stephen.

[Geraint]

Hi Terry.

 

Given your intention to learn from this one and comparing it to the example tsuba you might have a look at where the missing inlays have come from, two sections at least in the figure and I think the bull, you might even be able to detect the undercutting of the edges where the bull was.

 

All the best.