Shingen Tsuba

[Gokaden]

A study piece here is a Shingen Tsuba.

 

They are rarely seen as genunie on the market today, there are alot of Tsuba claiming to be Shingen Tsuba.

 

This piece:

 

Tsuba

 

Mei (signature) : mumei (Unsigned) ("Shingen")

 

Length : 8.49 cm x 7.69 cm ( 3.34 inches x 3.02 inches)

Thickness of rim: 0.38 cm ( 0.14 inches)

Jidai(era) : Edo period.

 

On the Mokko style iron Tsuba, chain or rope design (nawame) is engraved with spot gold inlay.

The condition is really good.

 

 

Nawame = rope/chain pattern

Mokko = the shape with 4 arcs

Mon = pattern, mark, design

Zu = motif, design

Mumei = no-signature

Shingen = a style of tsuba

Tetsu = iron

Tsuchimeji = hammered surface

Kosukashi = small cut out work

Suemon-zogan = the work that the design is inlayed as one piece

Uchikaeshi-mimi = turned rim

[Jean]

F.N.

 

 

BTW: you translate the kanteisho by "Shingen style", why not "Shingen"? Shingen style, if I translate it in French means "as Shingen were doing them", why not rather "Shingen school".

 

For example a lot of schools were making "Soten style" tsuba, they were not Soten.

[Soshin]

Hi,

 

Nice papered Shingen tsuba of good quality and condition thanks for sharing. From the looks of the photos you likely purchased it at Aoi Art you should stop there sometime and also visit the NBTHK sword museum next door.

 

P.S. I will let moderators deal about the forum rules. :lol:

[Brian]

A nice and unusual Shingen tsuba. Since there can't be more than a handful of tsuba reworked by Takeda Shingen or his followers directly, I think it ok to call these Shingen tsuba instead of Shingen-style tsuba without causing any confusion.

Thanks for sharing.

 

Brian

[Ford Hallam]

Brian,

 

the story goes that Takeda Shingen favoured this style but there's no actual evidence that he did. It's just another one of those romantic myths that decorate this subject. I rather suspect that, like with most of the labels we apply to early unsigned works this one was conjured up in the late 19th century or early 20th century.

 

Here's a real cracker of an example :D

[Soshin]

the story goes that Takeda Shingen favoured this style but there's no actual evidence that he did. It's just another one of those romantic myths that decorate this subject.

 

Hi Ford H.,

 

You don't remember the long draw out scene in Akira Kurosawa's Kagemusha of Takeda Shingen picking the best Shingen tsuba to ride into battle with?

[Gokaden]

Jean,

 

This is why I prefer not "School" but rather "Style"

 

"a style of Tsuba as Shingen preferred them"

[Jean]

I see what you mean, but the kanteisho is affirmative, it says Shingen (I see you have edited your post in this sense )

[Pete Klein]

http://auctions.search.yahoo.co.jp/sear ... x=commerce

 

http://page11.auctions.yahoo.co.jp/jp/a ... n134439206

 

There are different styles but none are 'by' Shingen. I feel that Ford is correct. I see them all the time and have owned one myself. Most likely 19th and 18th century work.

[Curran]

http://www.dreamstime.com/royalty-free- ... ge21386376

 

Of the many observed, I did once come across a unique old tsuba of this sort fascinatingly manic crude but somehow hypnotically pretty.

That one almost got me to consider whether just a 'style' or something more with a grain of historical truth to it.

 

I had settled upon thinking Shingen or shingen-style came from Japan myth that Shingen was a bit OCD and would play with weaving wire in and out of tsuba as a habit to keep himself calm while waiting [encampment activity while 'waiting'] sort of like Trench Art of the World War. I never got the sense Shingen's were suppose to be artistic, though underlings picked up on his habit and started pursuing it as Art or some form of minor philosophy. A nervous habit taking on greater significance by other people.

 

I've seen one or two truly astounding WWI works done out of artillery shells, and one or two Shingen tsuba with that level of spirit and workmanship.

[Brian]

I would agree with Pete/Ford. Especially since the source here (Field museum book?) still continues the theory that square tsuba were sometimes used with swords as an impromptu ladder/step :?

 

Brian

[Soshin]

Hi Everyone,

 

To me it is fairly clear this style of tsuba has nothing to do with Takeda Shingen. To me Ford H. was just stating the obvious which sometimes is necessary.

[Ford Hallam]

Henri Joly writing in 1916, and informed by the leading Japanese authorities of the time, tells us "...there has been hitherto no satisfactory explanation of the name Shingen applied to these guards"

 

And yet, curiously, 100 years later and evidently without any real evidence, we now have a tale of a neurotic warlord doing macrame on campaign to soothe his nerves. :lol: and starting a fashion for DIY tsuba weaving. His previous attempts at crocheting kabuto having fallen flat

 

In my opinion the better versions of the style are in fact examples of quite sophisticated craftsmanship. Knowing what would have gone into creating them I very much doubt they were made by amateurs. That may appear simple but working out everything so that it all ends up even and tight, in wire, is no mean feat and likely took a lot of experimentation. These are not simple rattan woven mats.

[Geraint]

His previous attempts at crocheting kabuto having fallen flat

 

Puts a whole new spin on tatami kabuto.........

[Curran]

Yes, it does point to the trend starting about 100 years after Shingen as DIY tsuba. [some disagreement there, as late 1600s to mid Edo depending on source]

Quote: "the Japan myth". I don't hate the myth.

Joly jotted a few of them down. People tend to enjoy them, and some such as those about Takeda Shingen become popular.

 

"The name for this type of tsuba is taken from the famous Daimyo Takeda Shingen (Harunobu)(1521-1573). It is said that he favored this style of tsuba. Unfortunately there is no proof of this and we can find no evidence that he ever wore such a tsuba on any of his swords. It would seem that by the mid Edo period there were many old Saotome wheel tsuba around. Since they were no longer in fashion, why not use them for a new style that could be sold. In the long winters of the North, one could not do the amount of work one wanted and there was time to wrap such a tsuba. All it took was patience. It could be done by any worker or even his wife."

 

Given what is known of Shingen's personality, I am willing to accept the myth as genesis point for these and live with my own opinion. Enough of them do seem to be based upon older Saotome tsuba that I will accept the Torigoye-Haynes writing over the Joly. I shouldn't have written about 'underlyings', as that is my misguided mistake. The crocheting kabuto is nice Ford buffo.

[Ford Hallam]

Curran

 

I don't know that anything points to a trend starting 100 years after Shingen at all, we don't really know much about their origin or period at all. If you're referring to the 100 years later I wrote, I meant after Joli and was referencing the story you posted.

 

Also, as I explained, I very much doubt they were ever DIY tsuba.

[Curran]

Myth. A genesis myth in this case.

While myths are generally considered stories, stories are not all myths.

My mistake was to include his underlyings (generals and others). That I retract.

Still, a myth. Don't call it a story.

 

The quickest [but not conclusive] go-to reference on this is the paintings. I'm not sure when the oldest "24 Generals" scroll dates to, but I didn't find a version I could expand to satisfaction. Also, there is doubt an early Japanese painter would go to that level of detail even on a 'group photo' scroll. Probably we won't find any 'Shingen' tsuba there. It would surprise me pleasantly if we did, but I doubt that result. Then we move forward in time and paintings until we see something, if ever. I have seen them before on scrolls, one in particular coming to mind- but I did not purchase it.

 

You quote Joly. I quote Torigoye/Haynes. No reason we cannot stand on the same stage and chose different people.

To throw a bone, Torigoye is talking about northern manufacture that sounds rather far from Takeda Shingen's base. That too would further support these are a later development, even if you think more of Joly than Torigoye/Haynes. If you disagree with Torigoye/Haynes on the DIY aspect.... that these are somehow higher forms of art beyond bluecollar.... well, whatever. You are entitled to your opinion. Just like myths as subset of stories, {basket} weaving can be high Art, but not all baskets are Art. Nor do I think most of these tsuba are Art beyond the skillset of a man, or his wife.[per quote].

 

My host father in Japan made Art out of cigarette package wrappers that is higher art than most of these Shingen tsuba. I have no problem taking a photo of his work and posting it here, if you doubt the ingenuity of an average bluecollar Japanese man to make one of these Shingen tsuba out of a Saotome: given enough time, interest, and possible financial motivation. This is not to say that they were all made this way, but rather to support the Torigoye/Haynes notion that many of them could be DIY jobs.

[Pete Klein]

Torigoye is talking about northern manufacture that sounds rather far from Takeda Shingen's base.

 

Curran, I must wonder if here 'North' is relative. Edo back then was 'North'. The rest would be the 'wild, wild North'... :|

[christianmalterre]

agree with Ford,agree with you Curran!(of course!-you both are right)

 

why not changing the entire attribution(schoolars name)to Kaga Tsuba??????

would ben much easier,plus historical/mythical significance still would not contradict equally...

(they agree with Kaga...still but do refer to Shingen...this guy least lived 100 years before...so what?)

 

sometimes it seems,there´s too much trouble done...for stuff ben clear fact(if you like to point things which around roughly 100 years apart from todays, got fixed due simple commerce interests).

 

Christian

[Pete Klein]

To all, please. If you are posting from a book or article, posting a scan or are taking a quote from a reference it is only polite and more importantly academically correct to include the reference information. It is of little to no value to post such without reference.

 

You all received an 'F' this day.

 

Thank - you,

 

Sr. Mary Knucklesmaker, VPO

 

[christianmalterre]

"You all received an 'F' this day. "

 

?????????????

Pete?

[John A Stuart]

Christian, Kaga? why, Yamashiro is south of Kaga? Not really close to Kai if you consider the Shingen story. There are different types in this sub-group of Saotome tsuba, so better Mukade Saotome, perhaps. As to non-artisans weaving the wire into Saotome tsuba, I don't find it as being too far out of the realm of the possible. Maybe every Tom, Dick and Henry couldn't/ wouldn't do it, but, there are amateur craftsmen in the hinterland surely capable of adding some wire to an already extant Saotome plate and the abilities of these various craftsmen show in how some are much more intricate than others. The myth of Shingen liking them is nebulous and I discount it without proof. The story goes he liked them because they were light. Not really any difference I think. John

Oh, I just wanted to add that most are 17th 18th century, yes?

[christianmalterre]

how?...and why? Saotome?

have you ever seen such an ita iron on any Saotome guard?

me,certainly not i confess...

please study Saotome school and their´s iron execution!

afterwards,we still can discuss about the "Schnickschnack" applied on it(on the iron ita)

Sorry!

 

Christian

[John A Stuart]

Is it not the current wisdom that Saotome plate is the base for these tsuba? John

Again I must add, of the kiku form being Saotome plate, not the katchushi type.

[christianmalterre]

this would...in case this argument would ben correct...augment their´s fiscal value.

 

me,for mine part...prefer the Saotome iron

 

call them like you want it...

(me do link me out here...not mine stuff...too much politics involved )

 

Christian

[Gokaden]

[Pete Klein]

Very nice. It 'works'!

[Curran]

Christian:

An 'F' is a failing grade in the USAmerican Public School System, and perhaps some private or religious schools (Catholic school, per Peter's joke).

 

I pulled up 3 sources, and was looking for a 4th. I will say they all disagree slightly.

I'm not going to post the private translations we'd paid for nor the private notes of those deceased, for the reasons you understand.

 

Might as well post the Nihonto Koza for starters. Then go from there. If it is only Ford and me, I'm not going to bother.

 

 

Note: I've fixed the orientation twice and saved it down before posting. Yet it is still testing wrong orientation. I think you guys can figure out which end is up, and adjust accordingly.

Nihon To Koza Shingen.pdf

[John A Stuart]

It took me awhile, but, the main text is;

武田信玄の考案によって作ったという鉄の透鐸に真 銭、または銅線を編み上げた一種のもので、その編み 方も多様であるように思われ、いずれも無銘で、作者 名もわからず、時代も後世のものが多い。これは信玄 の発明により、かく名付けられたといわれてはいる が、後代の模造がほとんど会部で、それがほとんどす べてのように思われる。一説には明治以後に貿易ロ聞と して製作されたものであるともいう。

「佐那回天法」、あるいは「山城国天法」と銘する輔障 があり、鉄木瓜形、刻印打込に金の露を象献にしたも のがあり、本科は早乙女流のもので室町末期ないし江 戸初期ごろのものには名ロ聞があるが、一般にいわゆる 天法銘のものの大部分は江戸時代中期以後の実用鍔 というべきつまらぬものが多い

It says, from what I can gather that; Although rumoured to have been invented by Takeda Shingen there are none from the time or of the region that these could be in imitation of. They were made as trade goods according to studies made during the Meiji period. Of very good core plate from Yamashiro, Saotome and made on the seal fishing grounds late Muromachi and Edo period. The quality diminished during the Edo period onwards.

 

Someone can give a better idea of the text I hope. John

[Curran]

I got a different translation. :lol:

paraphrase [Design created by Shingen, but none (considered?) made by him. Earliest are early Edo, but great most late Edo low grade.]

 

To add to that, I now have 3 different versions of Torigoye-Haynes translations. 1 is much more like your Nihonto Koza translation than the other two.

Beginning to wonder how much is lost in translation, or added in translation. Bunch of monkeys we are....

 

Consensus seems to:

(1) be none are actually by him.

(2) a minority favor him having a link to them, a slim majority say he has nothing to do with them

(3) opinions place some at early Edo. Personally I've never seen one I'd date before the very late 1600s.