Prewar kokuho and Juyo Bijutsuhin

[Guido]

Adrian, since you joined NMB, you made more than 650 posts, 1.5 a day on average. There is not a single one among them that contributes in any way to the advancement of Nihontō (or Nihontō related) studies. Zero, nada, zilch. They are without exception opinion-based. You only pop up when you can argue for arguments sake. You are the textbook example of a troll, so no wonder you take another troll's side. It is beyond me why Brian lets you continue posting here, but it obviously feeds your delusion that your opinion is as valid as others. Learn to just shut up when adults are talking, and one day you even might learn something.

[Adrian]

There is not a single one among them that contributes in any way to the advancement of Nihontō (or Nihontō related) studies. .

 

Contributing to the ADVANCEMENT of Nihonto is something that obviously exceeds my competence at this moment. But saying that I didn't made any Nihonto related post is an obvious lie. And posting obvious lies about what other forumists do on a board IS TROLLING.

 

This being said, you don't seem to understand what is a FORUM and how it works. I doubt that anyone can say that my posts on this topic were anything but constructive, before you posted an (uncalled for) personal attack.

 

And one more thing: you need to learn that being a nihonto expert doesn't make you an expert in any other field. I wasn't questioning here your opinion about the attibution of sword X to school Y, just the fact that you called a troll someone who did a good deal of valid research on the whereabouts of confiscated nihonto.

[Brian]

Someone who dug up this stuff may be up to something....

Quite ironic that you would use that term, since if I remember correctly, the owner did apparently panic when he thought he had the Honjo masamune, and buried it for a few months/years??? :lol:

Rational.....not so much.

Guido...you have this one, I'll step back and enjoy being a bystander for a change.

Newcomers to this "debate" need to understand there is a long and involved history to this saga.

 

Brian

[Adrian]

Newcomers to this "debate" need to understand there is a long and involved history to this saga.

 

Brian, I fully understand that it's difficult for a newcomer to follow all this "history" on several boards and so on. That's exactly why I said that in the end Guido may be right about calling "Stephen II" (sorry, couldn't find anything better) a troll.

 

However, based on his contribution to THIS board (the one which is easily accessible to me) I don't see any rational reason to reject his claims. At least so far...

Of course, refuse to provide decent photos would seal the deal quite fast.

 

Also, if some of his messages were deleted long before I joined the board, don't blame me if I don't know that he already failed to provide proof to back up his claims and so on. :D

[Stephen]

Adrian did dig up post on the OP topic, G man made a valid point on Adrian only being in the arguing /debating mode 99.9 % of the time.

 

Adrian 1 G-man 2 a extra point for for pointing out that Adrian only post when he gets to debate and not point related to Nihonto learning.

 

carry on.

[Adrian]

With you keeping the score, USA would have won the Gold Medal in the Olympic tournament hockey :lol: .

[Stephen]

You keep up with your post you and Jock will be having tea together.

[Brian]

Stephen,

One thing I have never heard you quote in reference to your "Masamune" are the stats of the blade. In other words, please can you supply the nagasa and sori of your blade, as well as whether there are any kirikomi or hakobore present? Describe the koshirae?

Shouldn't pose much of a problem to post those stats, or be at all objectionable? Very simple request.

 

Brian

[Stephen]

Members please put the T behind Stephens name,

[Guido]

In other words, please can you supply the nagasa and sori of your blade, as well as whether there are any kirikomi or hakobore present? Describe the koshirae?

Oh, he did so some time in the past. I remember seeing pictures of the parts of the Koshirae sealed in plastic bags before he burried them (I' not sure if he posted those in public or PM'd them to me). Neither the blade nor the Koshirae have the slightest thing in common with the description in the Meibutsuchō.

[Jean]

I keep wondering why no one has asked for my Rabbit with mustard recipe. A real Kokuho:cry:

[Ted Tenold]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russell's_teapot

 

 

Jean, I'm not a huge fan of Rabbit, but I would anticipate excellence coming from a French kitchen. Shall I bring a nice, but modest Burgandy??

 

[Baka Gaijin]

Good evening Jean

 

An excellent culinary prospect, will the Bunny be boiled?

 

If so, may I suggest:

 

 

Fava Beans and a nice Chianti

 

 

 

Cheers

[Jean]

Tomorrow in the Izakaya section, Guys. Very simple but delicious. :D

[Pete Klein]

I am waiting, but with impatience...! LOL!

[Stephen]

Its up now Pete

[Wah]

Friends,

It was not my desire to be a pain. I truly wish I could spend time answering questions but I feel somehow my work would just become the fixins of some new

rabbit casserole that nobody seems to know anything about.

I posted on the forum for one reason only. This reason was not to argue with short white jolly german bunnies driving Mercedes Benz's, but only

to share since somebody said I was elusive.

One cannot start naming of people's names and sharing private conversations else people would start to lose trust in me.

When the Documentary on Honjo Masamune was put up, I decided to take the nice gentlemans advice on the show and compare the old drawings from 1500's with my little sword. It is said that the hamon

is like a fingerprint and cannot be copied. I took the challenge and compared both the drawing and the the sword, one above the other. Not just one shape matched but another, then another, then another etc.,

and they were exactly where they were shown on the drawing. Even the opposite side matches.

Years ago, I use to be interested in proving things to people. After my recent findings, I dont need to prove anything anymore. Take care and enjoy the wabbit.

All the best,

 

Stephen T.

[mdiddy]

Stephen,

 

Thanks for sharing. I enjoyed the documents on NT and IAO you compiled from the Nat'l archives here: http://www.militaria.co.za/articles/WW2_Archives.pdf. It made for some very interesting reading and interpretation of typos.

 

I could not find any description of the Honjo Masamune mentioning the presence of its having a bo-hi.

 

Matt

[Mark]

Stephen T,

 

How about this: I invite you to the Chicago Sword show. See http://www.chicagoswordshow.com I will give you a complimentary display table. You will have in attendance most all the North American "sword experts" who could examine it. Also in attendance will be most of the serious sword collectors and dealers who would be in a position to offer you a fair "reward" if you wish to sell the sword. This is an opportunity to display and educate a large number of collectors and also receive a number of competitive offers all in one place. If you are interested contact me and I will make the arrangements. Several NMB members will be in attendance and can report on their thoughts confirm your research after seeing it which should enhance your opportunities to market the sword for maximum "reward"

[b.hennick]

Great offer Mark! I will be at the show and I would be delighted to look.

[John A Stuart]

I won't be at the show, but, would be tempted to go if that happened. John

[Brian]

Stephen,

Not one answer to any of the questions I asked, or one titbit of dimensions, names, details?

Not a nagasa, sori, description or anything?

Hardly fair to claim you are not elusive, and then provide us with nothing new and just brush off every reasonable request for info. That's called elusive.

Yes, the national Archives info was fantastic, we owe you a huge debt of gratitude for that info.

Can you at least tell us if you are still working on behalf of someone else who owns this sword, or if you are representing yourself now?

Enquiring minds need to know

 

Brian

[Guido]

Although it might appear that way to some, I'm actually not as obsessed with Stephen Thorpe (a.k.a. Steve a.k.a. Zack Crebber a.k.a. Lucien Berry a.k.a. fiddlin4you) as he is with the Honjō Masamune. He constantly manages to annoy me, but I promise that these will be my last words on the matter (of Steve, not Masamune). I would hate to continue seeing respected members of this forum falling for his delusions.

 

It actually all started in 2003 when Stephen T. posted on SFI

The sword was found in March 2002 in a small town and was stored in a trash barrel for 30 years with a large collection of fencing swords and other junk. The owner was a lawn mower repairman.

At that time he claimed that the sword was appraised at US $ 600,000,000.-, which he later raised to US $ 2,000,000,000.-. Two billion, for those weak with zeros. He constantly changed his story, though: one time he was just helping a friend, the other time he owned the sword himself. It was buried, then it was not. The NBTHK confirmed it as real, then they even didn't know about it. And so on and so on.

 

After some skirmishes we had on at least three forums (I already linked to some threads), he stopped posting. He even PM'd me and apologized. I'm not the unforgiving, resentful guy some think I am, so I left it at that. I even was very happily surprised when he went out of his way to scan the de-classified US Govt. documents relating to national treasure and other important swords after WWII, and posted them on NMB. I still commend him on that, and thought he finally got around. As this thread shows, I was painfully wrong.

Not one answer to any of the questions I asked, or one titbit of dimensions, names, details?

Brian, of course there is no answer, and there never will be one. But it's not too difficult to put together pictures of his "Masamune" from what he made public so far.

 

First the blade. The description in the Meibutsuchō states that it has no Horimono (which includes Bo-hi) and is Ō-Suriage Mumei. Stephen's sword has both: a groove, and it's signed "Kiyomitsu" – the way the signature is written makes it easy to identify it as a work of one of the Kaga Kiyomitsus.

[Guido]

The Koshirae: Momoyama period Uchigatana-koshirae, the Tsuka has black Samé, indigo-blue leather Tsukamaki, the Menuki are pairs of three Kiri, the Tsuba and Fuchi have a Kiri and Kiku motif, the Kozuka and Kōgai are Kiri in gold. In other words, a typical Tenshō-Koshirae.

 

Stephen's Koshirae doesn't match this at all, and of course there is neither a Kozuka nor Kōgai:

[Guido]

The name of the sergeant who got possession of the Honjō was noted as コリーディバイモ (ko-rih-di-ba-i-mo) by the police officer who surrendered the swords (please note that there is no "・", which is usually used between given and family names of non-Japanese, so it might well be just one, i.e. family, name). Concluding from that he was an African American Sgt. named Colonel Davey Morrissey is as absurd as it gets, and doesn't really need any commenting on.

 

That's all, folks. As they used to say on "Dragnet": just the facts, Ma'm.

[cabowen]

4 pages of banter and not one answer to my question....sigh......

[Guido]

Chris, I thought the question was answered ... kind of ... but anyhow, here's my take on it:

 

Jūbi can be exported, Jūbu & Kokuhō not. All pre-war Kokuhō were re-assigned as Jūbu, and therefore have to stay in Japan.

 

If, for example, the Honjō Masamune is brought to Japan, it can't leave the country anymore. If it also would be returned to its original owner is a question for a lawyer. All those famous paintings found in Germany recently will be returned to their previous owners, but the Chinese are fighting for years to get back those ancient bronze animal heads, and the British Museum rejected claims by a couple of countries to return their national treasures. International law seems to be kind of a grey zone when it comes to the status of art objects displaced during and after armed conflicts.

[cabowen]

All pre-war Kokuhō were re-assigned as Jūbu, and therefore have to stay in Japan.

 

 

I hadn't heard this before....Thanks for the info.

[Stephen]

With CB's permission i vote to close thread as Adrian always has to have last word, (take it to PM Brat). any seconds? Its really getting old that all he wants to do is debate!!!

[Jean]

Stephen is totally right.

 

I have deleted all the irrelevant posts and am locking it.

 

A fair offer has been made to Stephen T., upto him to take it. If he does not, it is his choice, but no more post on this topic as at the time being, no proof has been given on the nowadays location of this lost Masamune.