Prewar kokuho and Juyo Bijutsuhin

[cabowen]

I know this topic has been discussed before but I can't seem to find it...

 

It has been my understanding that all the prewar classified Kokuho and JuBi that were taken out of Japan at the end of the war essentially had this classification revoked. Which I have always assumed meant that they could be freely imported and exported once again from Japan.

 

I know that the recently discussed Akihiro was a prewar JuBi and it was quite recently imported and exported from Japan without incident.

 

Watching the tv show last night about the missing Honjo Masamune, a comment was made that it could only be identified in Japan, and that once it was in Japan, it would not be permitted to leave again. This contradicts my understanding of the situation.

 

Can anyone verify the status of these prewar kokuho and jubi as far as import/export from Japan is concerned?

[Eric H]

Article by Guido Schiller

 

http://www.jssus.org/nkp/japanese_sword_laws.html

 

Eric

[cabowen]

Thanks, but there is no mention in his informative article of the status of prewar Kokuho....

[Derek]

Hi Chris,

very interesting subject. You, and a few others on this board, are far more knowledgeable about these things than I ever will be, but I would hazard a guess....

Prewar kokuho and jubi should be allowed to be imported and exported. However, could it get a bit more difficult when something like the Honjo Masamune is involved? I am always fascinated when you describe the front/back nature of Japanese society, so I could imagine the politics that would be at work, given that example.

Could you imagine if the Honjo Masamune was located, perhaps sitting in a closet of a deceased WW2 American GI. The new owner sends it to Japan for authentication. What back room politics and negotiation would ensue? I for one, could never see it leaving Japan again, rule or no rule.

But I will defer to those more knowledgeable. Love to hear your thoughts.

 

Derek

[cabowen]

I don't think there would be any issue with it leaving if the law was clear that prewar kokuho are exempt from export restrictions. There would certainly be those who would be unhappy but the law, even in Japan, is still the law....

[Brian]

I beg to differ. The law is anything but the law. It can be bent, broken, shifted and interpreted differently. And I am guessing the same applies in Japan.

Polititians are quite used to shifting the goalposts and enduring the (brief) outcry before everyone forgets.

I too suspect that there would suddenly be complications in getting a sword of that high status back. Maybe sudden calls for reparation for stolen artworks. Or something similar. But I doubt it would easily be sent back.

Still, no way of knowing, as it is not about to be discovered, and this is all theory.

 

Brian

[cabowen]

All we have to go on is prior reaction and results. To date, I know there hasn't been an issue with import and export of JuBi swords-I started the thread to see if anyone knows the law regarding Kokuho.

 

Most Japanese, including politicians, could care less about Japanese swords, regardless. And I have yet to see any group more adept at following rules and laws...I have seen the system operate from the inside countless times and I would have no fear that somehow the law would be ignored and my property confiscated ad hoc.

[Adrian]

Could you imagine if the Honjo Masamune was located, perhaps sitting in a closet of a deceased WW2 American GI.

 

Tbh I really doubt that this particular sword is anywhere else but in some US govt storage. Even if "Sgt. Coldy Bimore" or some other American soldier had it long enough to bring it home, I bet it was tracked down by the American government a long time ago.

 

As for the sword being allowed to leave Japan again, I guess that it would depend by a multitude of factors: who owned it, under what circumstances would it enter Japan again and so on. I'm sure that the nationalist factions would make a big fuzz out of such an event and put a lot of pressure on the mainstream politicians.

IMO the Japanese wouldn't openly break their own law, but if they were to find some sort of legal glitch that allowed them to seize the sword without losing face... who knows? It would all depend on how the public opinion in Japan would react.

 

In any case, I'm VERY sure that a handsome offer would be made to the owner. Probably something too good to refuse. ( and I don't mean in the Godfather style).

[Brian]

If you search Youtube for Honjo Masamune, we still have our elusive friend convinced he has it. Lots of videos showing not much of anything.

Anyways...considering the ambivalence of the US to these, little chance they bothered looking for it. It is likely in civilian hands, or has been destroyed cutting weeds.

Am fairly sure whoever has it doesn't know what he has...like the sword just out of the woodwork lately.

I am still intrigued by the Youtube member who comments that Sgt Coldy Bilmore may just be someone called Sgt Cody/Colby from Baltimore. Maybe he wrote on a tag somewhere Colby, B.imore or B/imore

 

Brian

[Adrian]

I'm fairly sure they bothered to look for it. Not because they cared about a priceless historical artifact, but because of the historical and political importance of this particular sword for Japan. If you read a bit about how determined was Patton in looking for the Holy Lance, you'll see where I'm coming from.

 

Now, of course there's a possibility that it was destroyed before the US authorities could get to it. And, of course, the whole Colby, B.imore speculation cannot be ignored or downplayed, given the inherent chaos of those days. But I'm fairly convinced that the US authorities would have sorted it out anyway, unless of course the guy who took from the police station Tokugawa Iemasa's lot of swords was a determined crook who used a false identity.

 

Sure enough, if we accept the rather farfetched idea that the US govt is unable to locate the whereabouts of a sergeant, while knowing his regiment and knowing that he walked with an artifact worth millions of dollars, we can also speculate that the incident never took place and was just an excuse fabricated by the Japanese authorities (or even some group of Japanese officers) in order to keep the sword. For all we know it may be in some hidden room in the Imperial palace...

[Derek]

Like I said, I'll defer to those with more experience with Japanese politics. It's fun to speculate, though.

 

I hope that it is recovered in my lifetime, and in salvageable condition. Whether a GI, the US gov't, Japanese, Freemasons, Area 51, Bermuda triangle, or Aliens.....

 

Derek

[Adrian]

Well, if the Japanese started to press the issue real hard (which is not the case and probably won't be in the near future), I wouldn't be amazed if the US govt "discovered" in the records that the ship taking sgt. Coldy Bilmore back home was lost at sea :lol: Not the Bermuda triangle, but close enough :lol: . End of story.

[seattle1]

Hello:

A few weeks ago in the context of another discussion similar to this one, I had stated that a Juyo Bi, while no longer with status in Japan, could not be legally be taken out of Japan even if legally owned by someone living outside Japan. I believed that was so because a few years ago Christie's or Sotheby's had an auction featuring a number of Juyo Bi's and made it quite clear in the catalog that the export of such pieces was not possible. Some of the realized prices were quite low and I assumed that the implicit demand reduction following that announcement was a partial determinant of the modest prices. Mike Yamasaki posted soon after that export was possible, and now Guido Schiller, in a 2006 article cited, appears to say the same. I would be curious to know if Mr. Schiller was summarizing his own understanding of the matter, or is he quoting Japanese Government laws or regulations as found in print there?

I would also be curious to know if the Akihiro, the subject of so much discussion after the Tampa show, actually went back to Japan and out again. I know that it is out now, but did it actually ever go back subsequent to its post WWII removal?

Arnold F.

[cabowen]

Yes Arnold, the Akihiro was taken to Japan, polished, and returned, within the last year.

[Guido]

Mike Yamasaki posted soon after that export was possible, and now Guido Schiller, in a 2006 article cited, appears to say the same.

Actually it was me who posted that information, and Mike confirmed it.

I would be curious to know if Mr. Schiller was summarizing his own understanding of the matter' date=' or is he quoting Japanese Government laws or regulations as found in print there?[/quote']The Bunkazaihogohō 文化財保護法 (Act on Protection of Cultural Properties) can be found here: http://law.e-gov.go.jp/htmldata/S25/S25HO214.html.

[Wah]

If you search Youtube for Honjo Masamune, we still have our elusive friend convinced he has it. Lots of videos showing not much of anything.

Brian

Brian and all,

Elusive?

 

 

 

 

 

It is interesting however for the people that have been looking for such a sword for many years can easily see the match in my videos. The Japanese sword dealers included.

I have offered the sword to dealers in Japan but there is one obstacle. It seems the sword is still considered property of the Tokugawa family. I suppose they see

it as stolen by the Occupation forces.

 

The GHQ records indicate Iemasa was found to have been hoarding weapons so my opinion is that the confiscation was probably legit and the sword legally mine.

 

Turns out the family has asked that I donate the sword to them. They said this is no longer a time of war but is a time of peace. Yes, I believe in peace but I also believe strongly in being fair.

No I don't wish to sell, all I want is a fair reward.

I am American and the only way I understand, is to give a sweet reward when an impossible deed has been accomplished.

I have been asked by some dealers to take the sword to Tanobe san. I do not question Tanobe san, I think he is probably a fair person since he is highly regarded.

Interested parties that wish for the swords return must understand I only do things the American way since well, I am American. Its the only way I understand. If somebody wants something, they make the arrangements and come to me.

If I want to buy something, I am the one that does the footwork. That's just the rule of business. Any other way and one thinks somebody is trying to take advantage.

 

 

As far as Coldy Bimore, the list from Japan shows it differently in Japanese. My opinion is whoever translated from the Japanese to the name Coldy was pulling someone's leg.

 

I am not the expert in Japanese but whoever "Coldy" was, I think his real name was Colonel.

In the Japanese text, after the "Col", there is a dash. Then "Dai Bei Mo Sergent". If I had to hedge a guess maybe he was African American Sgt. named Colonel Davey Morrissey from South Carolina. Will we ever know for sure? probably not.

 

Anyway, take care fellas!

 

Stephen T.

[Guido]

OMG, not again, please ...

[Jean]

BTW, I forgot, did I ever post my Rabbit with mustard recipe

[Adrian]

Brian and all,

Elusive?

 

 

I think that the first thing to do IF you want your claims to be taken seriously would be to post some good photos of the sword. Short of that, your post is just an obvious target for poking some fun.

[Bugyotsuji]

Would it be possible to post a photo of the original Japanese text?

 

Many people here understand the nuances of Japanese well and can help you with a more accurate translation. If you are reluctant to do it in public, please get an accurate translation done, by a member of the community here or a third/fourth party.

 

Quote: "As far as Coldy Bimore, the list from Japan shows it differently in Japanese. My opinion is whoever translated from the Japanese to the name Coldy was pulling someone's leg. I am not the expert in Japanese but whoever "Coldy" was, I think his real name was Colonel. In the Japanese text, after the "Col", there is a dash. Then "Dai Bei Mo Sergent". If I had to hedge a guess maybe he was African American Sgt. named Colonel Davey Morrissey from South Carolina. Will we ever know for sure? probably not.

[Guido]

Guys, don't feed this troll again! This is going on for at least 8 years, part of the story can be found here viewtopic.php?f=1&t=505 and here http://forums.samurai-archives.com/viewtopic.php?t=553, and especially here: http://www.swordforum.com/forums/showth ... UNE-katana.

[Brian]

It is interesting however for the people that have been looking for such a sword for many years can easily see the match in my videos. The Japanese sword dealers included. I have offered the sword to dealers in Japan but there is one obstacle....

Can you name some of these dealers that have seen pics and agree?

Turns out the family has asked that I donate the sword to them.

Who from the family have you been in contact with?

No I don't wish to sell, all I want is a fair reward.

That is called selling

I am American and the only way I understand, is to give a sweet reward when an impossible deed has been accomplished.

Fair enough. Let's stop all the vagueness right now, and lay down a number right here. No humming and ha-ing. Put down a specific number right here that you think is fair.

Interested parties that wish for the swords return must understand I only do things the American way since well, I am American. Its the only way I understand. If somebody wants something, they make the arrangements and come to me.

If I want to buy something, I am the one that does the footwork. That's just the rule of business. Any other way and one thinks somebody is trying to take advantage.

Then allow a small group of US experts that we will arrange through the NMB to have access to view the sword and come to a conclusion, and we will facilitate that someone comes over from Japan to finalize.

 

So how about it? If you really have faith in what you have (and you do) then let's bring this thing to an end one way or another.

 

Brian

[Adrian]

Guys, don't feed this troll again! This is going on for at least 8 years, part of the story can be found here viewtopic.php?f=1&t=505 and here http://forums.samurai-archives.com/viewtopic.php?t=553, and especially here: http://www.swordforum.com/forums/showth ... UNE-katana.

 

Not sure about that, I just read this topic viewtopic.php?f=9&t=12074&st=0&sk=t&sd=a and the guy doesn't look crazy or stupid to me. He seems to have done a good deal of digging trough the archives. (which of course doesn't mean that he actually found and acquired the sword, but at least gives him the benefit of the doubt).

[Guido]

O.k., I think the cat is out of the bag: since Jacques is lying low, we called back Stephen, because NMB needs at least two extremely annoying forumites at any given time.

[Stephen]

Really?

[Guido]

Really?

Sorry, but you don't qualify for this job, so we gave it to "the other Stephen" ...

[george trotter]

O.k., I think the cat is out of the bag: since Jacques is lying low, we called back Stephen, because NMB needs at least two extremely annoying forumites at any given time.

 

I didn't know Jacques was "lying low"...I thought Brian had sent him to the "sin-bin"?

 

I think Brian has called it right...here is "Stephen's" opportunity to show us what he's got and to name the dealers and Tokugawa family member who agree with him that this is the Honjo Masamune...what's so hard about that Stephen?

[Adrian]

because NMB needs at least two extremely annoying forumites at any given time.

 

 

Apparently logic and common sense can be very annoying, particularly for the self proclaimed guardian of the absolute truth :lol: .

 

To someone like me, who doesn't know who "offended" who on God knows what board or mail list some 10 years ago, the fact that X proclaims Y to be a big troll has absolutely no value. However, the fact that someone went trough the trouble of doing this kind of research viewtopic.php?f=9&t=12074&st=0&sk=t&sd=a actually has enough value to make me keep an open mind about what this guy may have to say.

 

Of course, as I already said, this doesn't mean that you're necessary wrong, you may as well be proven right by his reply (or lack of it). But a rational person will just wait and see.

Someone who dug up this stuff may be up to something (or may be trying to put up an elaborated hoax, time will tell).

 

download/file.php?id=31345

download/file.php?id=31346

[Guido]

What a wonderful example of the Dunning-Kruger effect.

[Adrian]

Thank you for proving my point even further :lol:

 

Others may notice that I brought a very solid argument for my rather neutral position, while your aggressive stance is (so far) only backed up by your self-proclaimed superiority :lol: (Keep in mind we're not talking about nihonto here but about historical research on the fate of some very famous nihonto - one doesn't need to be a nihonto expert to dig the relevant documents from the archives)