Has anyone heard of this before???

[Nickupero]

Looking for some help here if anyone knows. Have a sword in US customs and the Fish and Wildlife department is requesting the scientific name of the Manta skin being used, does anyone know this? From what I know its not a prohibited item? Has anyone had their item stopped before for this, I've been sending forever and its the first I hear of this.

[Brian]

Nick,

Canada F&W seems particularly....."difficult"

viewtopic.php?f=56&t=17012

viewtopic.php?f=6&t=12694

 

Those 2 should help.

 

Brian

[John A Stuart]

There are two kinds Manta birostris and Manta alfredi. I have heard some countries trying to enact legislation on importation. Still pending I think. John

Sting ray. Lots of kinds under Myliobatoidei

[Nickupero]

Thanks Brian and John!

I checked both species John supplied and they are not listed as endangered but "vulnerable" which is one grade above endangered.

Not sure what to do here, if I give them the wrong species this situation can go sour real quick.

Here is an image of the Tsuka in question, I would grade it as antique.. wouldn't you agree? And being antique does that change anything?

[Dr Fox]

Perhaps a bit of clarity?

http://www.cites.org/eng/res/13/13-06R16.php

[Eric H]

scientific name of the stingray is: dasyatidae

Eric

[zentsuji2]

Nick,surely if the rayskin was used over a 100years ago,then is o.k.

Ivory is the same,if antique then it's fine.

The colouration dictates that this is over 100years old,so both sword and rayskin saya should be treated as being made,used to make,before any species of ray were in danger.

Proving this may be hard to a customs official, but rayskin like ivory,takes on a patination that only time allows.

Just an argument to put across, that this ray died before the species,in question was known about, never mind endangered.

Just my 2cents worth.

Best regards. Ian bellis

[ROKUJURO]

.....the Fish and Wildlife department is requesting the scientific name of the Manta skin being used

Nick,

 

as far as I know, all Manta are rays, but not all rays are Manta. Have a look in the previous posts on this subject, there are some scientific names mentioned.

 

Addition: Not all rays are stingrays. SAME is made from pearl rays.

[JDinMT]

I talked with Ben Kaiser a few years back, when I bought some same-gawa from him, as to supply etc. First I would suggest forget about Manta at all, same comes from a common specie of sting-ray from the waters around Indonesia and such (even the Japanese supply) where it's common and on no lists (no longer from the waters off Japan where it's now endangered).

I agree yours is most likely antique, but to try to prove that to power hungry beaurocrats with no common sense (USFWS) may be difficult at best.

Again, common stingray, not Manta.

 

John D.

[John A Stuart]

"There are over hundreds species of Stingray fish and they occurs throughout the world's tropical and temperate sea. These species maybe different in appearance but share common features such as a whiplash tail and venomous spine.

We use only 2 types of Stingray fish, the Single Crown (Pearl) Stingray fish (Dasyatis Bleekeri) and Spotted Eagle Rays/Row stone (Pearl) Stingray fish (Dasyatis Bleekeri/Aetobatus Narinari). These marine Stingrays are mainly found in South Asia and South East Asia especially in Thai Gulf and Andaman Sea. Both species are neither endangered nor threatened. According to CITES (The Convention on International Trade in Endangered Species of Wild Flora and Fauna), there are documents to show that Stingray is not included in these appendices and therefore legal for commercial and trading through the world."

 

John

[zentsuji2]

Looks like another worry for us getting swords through customs.

We had all better study ray species, so good answerable available, when needed.

You would find it difficult to get those fine nodules.

A better answer has been posted as i was writing my post.

Regards Ian

[Justin Grant]

Not ray related, but the US just passed an ivory ban and it does not care if antique (pre ban) or new. It can't be shipped out of the state it currently resides in. The US suppliers I've used for ivory keys sent me a letter stating they will close once signed by the president.

[John A Stuart]

I agree we must prevent destruction of species for, on the whole of it, less than ethical reasons, like rhinoceros horns for knifes, tiger bones for dubious results, etc. The thing is, these are renewable resources and could be managed and yes, regulated to provide sustainable resources for meritorious artworks. It is the same with fish stocks, get the money now and bugger the future stocks. There is one group I blame for this in particular, not worth mentioning, but, we, in general are to blame. For example, literally tons of ivory netsuke and okimono on the market made recently and of no real value to collectors, but, a just must have by Ferengi aquisitors. Now, because of this greed legitimate antiques and collectors will never come together and I expect it will become worse. I am a hunter, less so now, but, I would never hunt to endangerment that which would provide future hunters their recreation. It happens here though; carcasses left to rot afield for eagle claws and feathers, velvet antlers and gall bladders. I am of the opinion that a hunt with a camera is a much better use of nature for those things becoming more rare. Just thought I would mention this and hope others may agree. John

[Nickupero]

Thanks you gentleman for all your valuable input...now its a big waiting game. Hopefully this customs official will not have something to prove!

John I found the link where you got that info, I really hope they don't ask me how to prove that exact species.. wouldn't even know where to start.

 

Btw I agree with you John, its unfortunate not everyone shares this opinion.

[Jimmy R]

I have had terrible problems with prefectural customs and post offices in south Kyushu and now Okinawa. I have literally lost thousands of dollars and even had a papered sword (hizen Masahiro) confiscated that was sent with 3 Samegawa and 2 handles to be wrapped. A word of warning. Japan is becoming more bureaucratic in the rural areas. All tsuka should be described as fake or plastic with non slip nodes!

Jim

[Eric H]

confiscated that was sent with 3 Samegawa and 2 handles to be wrapped.

[Jimmy R]

The above statement is completely false. There are at least 4 species of stingray that grow to about 15 inches that arrive on the docks here at the fish market. It is served as a favorite at my local Sake stand. It is sold in my local grocery store (frozen and fresh)On the docks at the all night fish market in Sasebo, there was always some to be bought. The east China sea is notorious for having large stingray in the shallows.

Jim

Maybe he is speaking of a ray with large nodes or some species that was traditionally used (but I doubt it.)

[drbvac]

I can't imagine anyone using Manta rays for anything - I am sure you have all seen them on some nature show - little large for tsuka :D :D

 

 

Sting rays do get very big but don't think they are used when very big - they are all over the Carribean as well - ps the ray is the flat thing to the left

 

[Eric H]

Maybe he is speaking of a ray with large nodes or some species that was traditionally used

That‘s exactly what he‘s talking about.

Eric