Kyu Gunto in combat?

[Josh man]

I know Shin Gunto were used in combat, but I was wondering if Kyu Gunto were used as well? Or was this just a parade sword like most western nations?

 

Thanks!!!

Josh

[Geraint]

Hi Josh.

 

As I am sure you already know there are parade versions of most sword types for wear in such situations. Also at the outbreak of WWI British officers swords were sent to the armourers to be sharpened for combat so, although it seems ridiculous given what we know now about how that war developed, there was certainly an expectation that they would be used.

 

All preamble really, I have read that part of the reason why the shingunto koshirae was introduced was that the kyugunto was found to be difficult to use in combat, the clear inference being that they had seen active service. If you have it have a read of the early chapters of Fuller and Gregory.

 

All the best

[george trotter]

Further to the comments here, there are many ukiyoe of the Russo-Japaneses War (1904-5) and even earlier, the Sino-Japanese War (1894), which show kyugunto being used in combat. I know these pics are stylised, but photos also show before and after pics of combat/battlefields and company officers and their men standing amid the debris of a hard won redoubt. These company officers would, one would presume, have been the man who led the attack at the head of their individual companies in infantry combat.

I think there is no doubt that Kyugunto were used in combat and to extend to Geraint's comment, I think the difficulty is mostly in our modern "samurai oriented" minds and the difficulty of using them in combat must have been relatively minor as they were not re-designed until 1934, and this was primarily (IMHO) because of a desire to be more "Japanese" in the mounts...instead of "quasi-Western".

IMHO these are true combat gunto mounts.

Just my two cents...

[mdiddy]

There was a Kyu Gunto at the Tampa show that had obviously been used in combat. I wish I had taken some pictures of it. The hilt had a bullet strike to the backstrap that angled in and another ding to the top of the D-guard. The saya had a bullet hole through it. Interestingly, the blade was not damaged. Why? Because it must have been drawn when the bullet holes hit. The angles of the bullet holes suggested it was used during a charge. It was a Sue Bizen blade, mumei. If the owner reads here perhaps he will post some pics.

 

Matt

[Kai-Gunto]

Offcourse it was used in battle. It was the type used by the army and navy back then.

[Josh man]

I do have the Fuller and Gregory book. I don't have it on me at the moment though. I was toying with the idea of getting a kyu gunto, but I don't know how it would go with a combat troop display if it weren't used in combat. I think I may get one, since they're still a very important part of Japanese history, even though the aren't as pretty as the shin gunto.

 

I've also noticed that some of the Meiji and Taisho era swords have katana blades, would there be a premium in price for a katana with kyu gunto mounts over a katana with shin gunto mounts?

 

Also, we're these still in use up until 1945?

 

Josh

[Kurikata]

Please refer to this illustration coming from a book with Title " The battles between Japan an China - Vol III = SHEKWAN",published by SHUN-YO-DO / Tokyo.

 

Kyu Gunto were definitively usedin combat......

 

best regards

 

Bruno

[Kai-Gunto]

Heres a photo I got from 1920-30's with officers and kyuguntos with combat leather cover.

They all have sharp blades mounted ,old and ones made in the time for the mounts.

Its only the parade edition that has blunt edge.

 

There is often some on ebay and they are normaly cheaper that the shinguntos. Maybe cus the european look.

 

I collect the navy ones. They have a nice look and where introduced near at the same time.

[Josh man]

Thank you for the pics!!! Gunto, you have quite a nice collection. Do any of yours have a Pre-Meiji blade? I read in my books that some of these have katana blades.

[Kai-Gunto]

The large one on the left , has an old blade mounted from 1200-1400.

[Dave R]

I briefly owned the Police version of one of these, Bakelite grip and nickel scabbard etc, with a very worn, signed, Shinto, Wakizashi blade...... Horribly flawed, so I regretfully let it go.

[Josh man]

It's a really beautiful piece. It seems kind of odd to have a katana blade in western style mounts, but regardless of the mounts it's still a nihonto. What kind of modifications to the tang are there with these kind of set ups?

[Geraint]

Hi Josh.

 

For most kyugunto , as with shingunto and kaigunto, the size of the tsuka means that a traditional nakago does not need to be altered. However for some of the parade sabres they certainly do. If you go to this site, http://www.japanesesword.com/ and go to Sold Items on the menu to the left then scroll down to the one that starts with, "Rare Murata-to," and have a look at the images you will see an example. I have to say the finish on this one makes it look as though it was made from the very first to go into parade sabre mounts but others have their nakago modified to suit.

 

In my earlier reply I suggested that the information I was looking for was in one of Fuller and Gregory's books but I have been unable to find it. When I come across it I will let you know.

 

All the best.

[Geraint]

Ah well, there you go. Just turned it up in JSS/US Vol.26 number 6. An article by Phillip M Goody, "Kai Gunto, Its Introduction and Rationale"

 

"With the outbreak of the Sino - Japanese war in 1937, however, Officers (sic) of the Special Naval Landing Forces suggested that the sword be changed to a Japanese style swords so that it could be used effectively as a weapon. This suggestion had in fact already been made at the time of the North China incident, but met with a cool response as the landing forces at that time were not engaged in a large amount of hand-to-hand fighting and the change was not deemed necessary. The complaint about the existing Kyu-gunto style was that the hilt was swollen in the middle and the binding on the handle wound downwards, like a vine, from top to bottom. Apparently this made the sword have a tendency to tilt to either the right or the left when cutting down with either one, or two hands and also gave it a tendency to tilt when swung above the head. It was difficult to grip the hilt with both hands because of the western style hand guard. In other words when it came to using the sword in actual fighting, the western style sabre was clumsy." And a little later n the article, "At the time of this change," (from Kyu to Kaigunto), "the Navy submitted a paper to the Japanese cabinet concerning the motivation for changing to a Japanese style tachi. An excerpt is as follows, " Existing official long sword is not appropriate for practical usage..."

 

While this argues for the introduction of what we know as the Kaigunto it also suggests that officers were using the kyugunto and finding it wanting.

[Johnny Barracuda]

Hello,

 

An addition to previous answers by other board members: the Kyu Gunto was used during the Sino-Japanese war, the Japanese invasion of Taiwan, the Boxer Rebellion, the Russo-Japanese war, the annexation of Korea, WW1, the anti-communist fight in Russia, then up to 1934 for the Army versions and 1937 for the Navy version (even longer for some officers decided to keep the Kyu Gunto after the introduction of the Shin and Kai Gunto).

 

The Kyu Gunto was actually used far longer than the Shin and Kai Gunto!

 

I concur with Thomas, the Navy 1883 Kyu Gunto is a splendid weapon, both extremely elegant and combat oriented, to my opinion probably the most beautiful modern military sword. It is also, to my experience, rather rare and expensive when found in great shape. If I remember correctly the Meiji Navy regulations, officers had to have a dirk but were not obliged to purchase an actual sword, they could own only the parade sabre, which was a lot cheaper. Only the Special Naval Landing Forces had to be equipped with actual swords, and photos show that some officers were granted Army Kyu Gunto because the Naval ones were in short supply.

[Grey Doffin]

There's no way to know for sure, of course, but at least some of the bullet holes in Japanese swords had to have been the result of an American soldier figuring that his captured sword would be even cooler if it had one.  I suspect many of the holes were delivered after combat.

Grey

[Kai-Gunto]

Army kyuguntos are found with anchor on the backstrap of the handle where the cherry blossom is placed. But they are very scarce.

[Kai-Gunto]

Heres a little mix of dirks,parade kyuguntos,"combat" kyuguntos and kaiguntos.

[Brian]

:clap:   Thomas,

You have a wonderful collection. And each one with the relevant tassel. Very nice indeed! Thanks for sharing.

 

Brian

[Johnny Barracuda]

Thomas, this is a fantastic collection!

 

I am intrigued by the largest kyu gunto (magnificent, by the way). The saya is covered with rayskin same. Is it a late production just predating the introduction of the kai gunto?

 

To my knowledge the Meiji and Taisho era produced Navy kyu gunto have saya covered either with black leather or with black or brown lacquered sharkskin same. Mine, which was made during the Taisho era, has a saya which is covered with brown lacquered sharkskin same.

[Dave R]

Kyu Gunto in combat..... I have been collecting pictures of Gunto in the field as research into how many of then were reusing Nihonto, and what modifications were made for field use.

[Bruce Pennington]

Adding a link here from a discussion over on Gunboards.  Our friend Austin Adachi posted some photos from his great book on the Naval Landing forces.  It's good reading, too, for anyone interested in some tidbits he shared about the NLF and SNLF.

 

https://www.gunboards.com/threads/Japanese-naval-sword-tassel.1239362/post-11235884

 

Thanks to @Bazza for the recommendation!

 

One of the pics posted by Austin:

 

HIs book is excellent!