swords made by showa smiths after ww2

[zentsuji2]

I apologise if this topic has been covered, but are post war gendaito, as collectable, or obtainable to collect, and do they fetch a higher price.

I know the sword has no history attached, but do any members have examples,and are they more or less expensive to buy.

I am taking this as an art sword not a weapon,and wonder how the workmanship compares, to the rush of war productions.

I don't mean the new smiths, but smiths allowed to forge again after 1955.

Any opinions welcome,or examples owned,commented on.

Thankyou. Regards to all members.ibellis

[cabowen]

Swords made after 1955 by war era smiths are usually much nicer than those they made during the war. They had the time post war to do their best work, and, only being able to sell two katana a month, they had to make attractive swords.

 

Some collect them, just like nearly everything else. They are usually a little less expensive that the latest made swords, but they are still considered shinssakuto even if they were made in the 1960's. They are usually more expensive than wwii era blades.

[zentsuji2]

What about the 1980s,is that too new,or does the same principal apply,i have started reading about the modern smiths, and looking at their work,but wondered about the ww2 rated smiths, where could I find info on their post war work.

I just feel they would take more time,more risks in style,and go for art instead of death.

Thanks for the reply chris,i am more concerned on what one would go through to get such a blade posted to the u.k.

Best regards. Ian b

[cabowen]

There weren't a lot of smiths who made blades during WWII making blades in the 1980's but, yes, the same applies.

[w.y.chan]

There are swords made during WW2 that is purely for appreciation and not for military service but these are swords that the smith spent a lot of time making and are very rare but do exist. Even special order swords made during WW2 that are shorter than 2 shaku 3 sun in blade length are most likely ordered by an officer who intend to carry it for active service and still may not be the smith's best work.

If all things are equal, with a historical attachment, personally for me a sword from WW2 would be more valueble to one made after 1955 if both swords are equally artistic in quality and by the same smith. The chance of that happening is rare. Most swords from almost any particular WW2 smiths that you are likely to encounter is the shorter swords made for the military and usually does not compare with their work after 1955.

 

Wah

[cabowen]

Wah is right- the best blades made during the war are usually those that were not made for military use- special orders for collectors, shrines, etc. Those are the ones to seek out....

[w.y.chan]

I'm sure many excellent smiths, following Japan's defeat in WW2, gave up swordmaking. There is probably more than a few who lost enthusiam and no longer felt the pride they once had before and during the war. I'm not sure how much this has affected the smiths who continue to make swords straight after 1955 compare to their "special work" from WW2 era. I guess some might even be a bit rusty having not made any long swords for about 10yrs.

 

Wah

[zentsuji2]

The smith i am looking at, made this blade late in his life,i have not got a wartime specimen to compare to,the work looks good on an artistic scale,and nicely finished, i am going to have a think,i am a bit overloaded this week,with sword periods,and need time to consider, what I am buying,this sword was made in the 80s,so being rusty is not an issue,as i suspect this smith forged many bladessince the ban was lifted,and worked through the war,it is one of the many avenues to explore in swords, and I will think hard on it,thanks wah,and chris,it gives an insight for and against kindaito.

Best regards Ian bellis

[SwordGuyJoe]

Who is the smith?

[zentsuji2]

Morimitsu Joe,he was a 1m rated smith,the sword made in 1981,i was asking in general,as i may have the chance to buy one,

Now that's out in the open,it has a nice look to it,things a ww2 smith normally would reserve for a presentation, or high paying officer,it has,bo hi,twin grooves,nice clear masame,and unusual mei

Thanks for the interest.

Regards. Ian bellis

[SwordGuyJoe]

If you like it, know what you're looking at/for (I'm not implying that you don't), and it's in your price range, go for it.

[Kai-Gunto]

Ogawa Kanekuni was a war smith and made swords until 26 nov. 2012.

[zentsuji2]

I suppose if one has the skill,and is still physically, and mentally willing to make a sword,then age is a gift of experience, the new smiths, are out of my range,and I feel these blades don't come out of Japan,without expense,and difficulties these days,

Thanks Thomas, 2012,is a testament that these Smiths had a passion, or a need of money,in later twilight years.

Any books on this,been written.

Thanks ian bellis

[SwordGuyJoe]

This is a pretty good one, though it focuses on the newer smiths, not necessarily forging in the war. But it does give a good amount of back up information on smith lineage to help you find WW2 smiths forging after WW2.

 

http://www.amazon.com/The-New-Generatio ... 4770028547

[george trotter]

There are a few smiths that began prewar and worked through WWII into Heisei era.

One I have always looked for but never found is Imaizumi Toshimitsu. Born Mei 31 in Saga he began in swords in Bizen Osafune in Sho 9...he was RJT and was still making swords into Heisei 5 at least (1991 or so). His work is usually about 75cm or so and spans 60 years.

I was given an illustrated book of his life/work and must say I like much of his work which is Bizen Osafune style, but especially I like one dated 1943 that is included in the book for its shape, length, hamon etc because it is a practical working style about 66cm. He was RJT in WWII.

He gained great recognition after the war and even made a sword for Walter Compton.

I have never been lucky enough to come across his blades, but I think he is well worth collecting.

You can see his details in Ono 1971 p.16 and Ono 1977 p.14.

Regards,

[cabowen]

I have seen two of his war era blades. They were nice but nothing exceptional. He really came into his own after the war when he became a prefectural "intangible cultural property"...

[zentsuji2]

Thanks as always, to all something learned,again.

All the best.Ian bellis

[Uechi]

To each is own. I just don't see the appeal of Gendaito. Some have great workmanship but they don't have the history or the metallic complexity of much older swords especially Koto. High end Gendaito are also not cheap. If I'm going to shell out coins I'd rather have something that reeks of hundreds of years of history. Obviously whatever you choose condition is important. Just not a fan of modern Japanese swords.

 

 

 

J Dromm

[w.y.chan]

To each is own. I just don't see the appeal of Gendaito. Some have great workmanship but they don't have the history or the metallic complexity of much older swords especially Koto. High end Gendaito are also not cheap. If I'm going to shell out coins I'd rather have something that reeks of hundreds of years of history. Obviously whatever you choose condition is important. Just not a fan of modern Japanese swords.

 

J Dromm

 

I see what you mean but partly for similar reason as yours is why I collect WW2 gendaito and kindaito.

Obviously it depend on what sort of history you are interested in. If it is "Samurai" history you are after then gendaito is not your subject

 

Wah

[cabowen]

"tomorrow's Juyo today"....the best of the gendaito are very good swords by any standard. Good luck finding a koto blade of comparable quality and condition for what a top gendaito costs....

 

Likewise, it isn't the number of years in a life, it's the life in the years: many gendaito have a very rich history, though perhaps they don't yet "reek".....

 

I guess it all comes down to, yet again, the collection of art or artifact...

[Uechi]

To each is own. I just don't see the appeal of Gendaito. Some have great workmanship but they don't have the history or the metallic complexity of much older swords especially Koto. High end Gendaito are also not cheap. If I'm going to shell out coins I'd rather have something that reeks of hundreds of years of history. Obviously whatever you choose condition is important. Just not a fan of modern Japanese swords.

 

J Dromm

 

I see what you mean but partly for similar reason as yours is why I collect WW2 gendaito and kindaito.

Obviously it depend on what sort of history you are interested in. If it is "Samurai" history you are after then gendaito is not your subject

 

Wah

 

You hit the nail on the head.For me it is about the art and the complexity of the metal forging before European metal imports and the real " Soul of the Samurai". I guess my martial arts training is showing.Even though most WW2 swords are no match for modern Gendaito at least they have a history albeit in a negative context.

 

J. Dromm

[Uechi]

"tomorrow's Juyo today"....the best of the gendaito are very good swords by any standard. Good luck finding a koto blade of comparable quality and condition for what a top gendaito costs....

 

Likewise, it isn't the number of years in a life, it's the life in the years: many gendaito have a very rich history, though perhaps they don't yet "reek".....

 

I guess it all comes down to, yet again, the collection of art or artifact...

 

 

Sorry, I couldn't disagree more. I don't buy Nihonto based on how much it costs or how much I can sell it for. I'm not a dealer. I have no problem with that mindset it just isn't mine. I'd rather have an average condition Koto sword in good polish then some modern metallurgical miracle. Even though forging techiques may be similar they are not the same. If modern techniques where the best artistically, smiths would be churning out Masmunes on a regular basis. The metal is different the techiques are different and the mindset is different. Name me a Gendaito with hundreds of years of history carried by a Samurai? The reality is they don't exist.Different strokes for different folks. There is no right or wrong or good or bad it is all about what you like. I don't hate Gendaito and would certainly buy an excellent example but they aren't the same and for me don't arouse the same emotions.

[cabowen]

That there are swords made in the last 100 years that are the equal to all but the best of Koto blades in quality is an opinion held by many of the most knowledgeable collectors and experts-people that have seen and handled many of both. Preferring older blades because of their history is simply a personal preference and there is no point debating the merits or demerits of something that is fundamentally based on one's personal preference. If you prefer old blades simply because of the romance factor, that is one thing- whatever floats your boat, but making sweeping generalizations about the quality of blades based solely on their period of production is, to continue the nautical analogy, booking passage on a sinking ship.

[Uechi]

That there are swords made in the last 100 years that are the equal to all but the best of Koto blades in quality is an opinion held by many of the most knowledgeable collectors and experts-people that have seen and handled many of both. Preferring older blades because of their history is simply a personal preference and there is no point debating the merits or demerits of something that is fundamentally based on one's personal preference. If you prefer old blades simply because of the romance factor, that is one thing- whatever floats your boat, but making sweeping generalizations about the quality of blades based solely on their period of production is, to continue the nautical analogy, booking passage on a sinking ship.

 

Baloney! There is no question that today's modern swords whether Japanese or any other are superior metallurgically. Better and stronger steel alloys means better blades. Namely stronger and more resistant to corrosion. Of course it is about personal preference what isn't?You talk about preferences and the go on to make statements about sweeping generalizations. I do not prefer Koto blades based on a romance factor but on history and the complexity of the metal given limited technology and limited resources to iron ore. Please provide examples of swords made in the last 100 years that are equal to or superior to Koto blades?. I would certainly like to see pictures of Masamune or Ichimoni quality blades made since 1914. I may be on a sinking ship but at least I'm at sea not in the stratosphere.

[cabowen]

Japanese smiths today use the same basic steel as used 1000 years ago- a high purity carbon and iron steel with very small amounts of various trace elements. They do not use "better and stronger" steel alloys. There is nothing "more complex" about koto steels- they have been analyzed and compare well to what is being used today. There are any number of metallurgical analyses/comparisons that have been published that prove this.

 

What is "history" but romance? It is emotion, not objectivity. Any objective analysis would show that quality craftsmanship transcends period of manufacture. That is to say, there have been master smiths in all periods.

 

Perhaps you might reread my comments: I did not say that there have been any Masamunes in the last 100 years, I simply said that there have been blades made in the past 100 years that when viewed purely on a quality basis, are as good as all but the best of the Koto period. On average, the swords being made today are of a highly quality than those produced, on average, during any other point in time. Because I can't collect Masamunes, I would much rather collect the best of the last 100 years than mediocre koto blades, many of which are tired, flawed, and greatly shortened. But that is because I value objective quality over subjective factors like "history".

[SwordGuyJoe]

I'd rather have an average condition Koto sword in good polish then some modern metallurgical miracle. Even though forging techiques may be similar they are not the same.

 

This is the same argument that most use against WWII showato collectors. They aren't collecting Nihonto, but historic artifacts. In your argument (though, I do agree, different strokes for different folks), you are accepting a sword of inferior artistic quality ("Average condition Koto sword") due to the historic significance - though granted your's would be Nihonto - but never the less, you are weighing history over art.

[John A Stuart]

This can be a circular argument/debate and means little in the general scheme of things. I only like Hizen, Bizen, Kamakura period etc. It only limits appreciation outside of personal preference. That is an insular view. Do we really need to? John