Any ideas as to age or attribution of this Tsuba?

[harvg]

Just received the Katana tonight! Here are what I hope are some better pics.

 

(I believe this Tsuba to be quite old, but would love to get any insight, as to the age or smith, that it might be attributed to?! Thanks!)

 

Harvey G.

[pcfarrar]

Think one of the Higo schools started this hand bone design.

[harvg]

This Tsuba came off a katana (which I have previously posted about), that has a Mei (gimei?) which seems to read "Mutsu no Kami Daido". Just wondering if this tsuba would support that or not?

 

Harvey G.

[hxv]

Harvey,

 

Tsuba and swords: one won't have any implication on the other. Tsuba are essentially replaceable accessories.

 

Edit: I do like the iron plate of your tsuba a lot.

 

Hoanh

[Curran]

Iconic Higo design usually associated with Shimizu-Jingo line.

 

There are one or two amongst the hundred(s) the Boston Museum and I think one of the NMB members owned a signed 5th gen of this design. Design is debated, but Ford's interesting conjecture was that it mirrors the bones of the hand. "Butterflies" is another. I prefer the bones of the hand.

 

There are also many non Edo period examples around.

If you really want our peanut gallery estimation of age, please provide more photos.

[harvg]

Thanks for any/all info! I have just purchased this sword, and will post some detailed pics, in about a week or so. This is the only other pic that I have, that shows the tsuba well. If the mei on the nakago is genuine, then that would put the blade somewhere in the late 16th to early 17th century. It's going to be a long wait, until the next USA shinsa!

 

Harvey G.

 

P.S.

I was told buy the seller, that the saya is not original, in case anyone noticed.

[Soshin]

Hi Harvey G.,

 

I am highly experienced in this regard out of a total of four tsuba submitted to three different Japanese preservation organizations for shinsa in the last two years only one tsuba came back as being Higo and antique (i.e. Edo Period 1615-1868). I would say based upon the photos you have provided so far the tsuba is likely a Japanese made modern tsuba done in what is a very popular Higo design. It will still likely be a very nice tsuba in hand and on a sword but just not an antique nor a fake (Chinese modern reproduction). Please provide more photos.

[harvg]

David Stiles, thank you very much for your input, and expertise! I look forward to sending you more detailed photos, when I can (1-2 weeks).

 

Harvey G.

[TosoguCz]

There is no debate that the motif aren't bones of the hand. Even if it wasn't written in the book, the motif are stylized butterflies.

[Ford Hallam]

Thanks for the vote of confidence, Curran :D

 

and for those who haven't seen how I interpreted the design this might help.

 

Worth bearing in mind that the longer bones at the top would, when holding a tsuka, be foreshortened when viewed from directly in front.

What I found really interesting is how the bones are only recognised as such when the sword is drawn and viewed from the opponents side.

 

Frankly I find the butterfly idea a bit weird, if anything it looks more like intestines that butterflies

 

One of my students, Remo Nogueira, from Brasil, actually made a very fine utsushi of one of the original tsuba by Shimizu Jingu the fifth when he studied with me a couple of years ago. He used steel that he made himself and the result was pretty good. The patina was especially satisfying.

 

If anyone's interested they can see some images, here, of some of the stages involved in the making of this tsuba. I'd imagine the originals were made in pretty much the same way.

[Marius]

Ford,

 

Hallam Ryu is still going strong :D

 

Excellent deshi work!

 

Roman,

 

it seems you have accepted the orthodox interpretation of this motif. Mind you, some of those orthodoxies are quite misleading (yakite shitate finish of a tsuba surface being a good example). Where do you see a butterfly? This sukashi does not even remotely remind of a butterfly or its pupa or caterpillar...

 

Well, some motifs can be explained some cannot. I have a tsuba with a sukashi described as cricket, but some people see a rabbit and pestle (you know, an usagi-no-mochi-tsuki kind of rabbit). Let us stay open to interpretations :-) Having said that, I am not so sure it is a hand, either. Still, this seems more convincing than a butterfly. But I will be happy to stand corrected if you produce some evidence, not only a scholar's description After all, it is fun, no?

 

Sorry for going slightly off topic.

[Curran]

I said I prefer the bones of hand idea by Ford. To me, it is infinitely more clever and I like to respect that. I have seen some Japanese paintings depicting various skeletons as if they were "living, laughing, loving people" [my own words] and thinks such life/death fine line divides shouldn't be limited to just Japanese paintings.

 

That said , I have also seen this design with two little dots rendered at the 3 places along the joints that would equate with eyes of butterflies. I do believe some of the tsuba smiths intended them as butterflies. Personally I find Japanese negative relief images of butterflies to be a bit freakish. They remind me of the artist who years ago did a painting or work of butterflies and put it on display in a New York museum [or university or art gallery. I am not going to dig around to find it. Made quite the NYC tempest-in-tea-pot over its display and how it was financed]. Only with close inspection did it become apparent that they weren't butterflies but rather cut-outs of various crotch shots of female privates and thighs from porn magazines or elsewhere.

 

To bring it full circle: do I think this tsuba is (a) pornographic design (b) butterflies or © hand bones ?

Well, I think most will go with (b) and I would answer that way on an NBTHK pop quiz.

Personally I think © is much cooler. We also had a forum member on the old mail lists that would have definitely gone (a), (a), (a)!!!!

 

__________________

Mariusz... I joked before that I thought yours was the top down image of a WWI biplane firing its guns. [i am the Red Baron about to dive down from above...]

My more serious answer is I do believe it is from the tea ceremony. I do not know the name of it. I might even have an image of one in use circa 1989. But having been part of tea ceremony a few times in and near Nagoya, nor having forged a few tsuba blanks long ago, makes me particularly an expert in either. Just an appreciative individual who has some understanding.

[Ford Hallam]

The problem I see with butterfly suggestion is that it implies the original designer was really rather bad. If I was to come up with an abstracted butterfly design along these lines it would certainly have more about it. In this arrangement the butterflies are simply arranged around the seppadai with no real sense of movement or design aesthetic.

 

Also, as we don't actually know what the maker called it we're trusting to the interpretation of one unknown 'Sensei' some time ago...one who almost certainly wasn't an artist. And now it's simply taken as gospel and without question.

 

A bit like the idea Musashi made tsuba and even made a few dozen depicting sea cucumbers

 

The 'kage-cho' tsuba, on the Kasen koshirae, (which I think is the design Curran alluded to) while quite subtle and abstract does, on the other hand, suggest butterflies.

 

And to make my point that just because it's a Japanese description doesn't mean its right here one called a ship design.

 

Apologies to the OP for going off on a tangent but I hope this has all been informative and eductional if not entertaining.

[Robert Mormile]

Ford:

 

Funny but when I view the tsuba you listed above, I see a kanmuri (like tate-eboshi) as the kuge wore...

Could it be? I can't get the photo of a kanmuri to load so here is a link:

 

http://www.sengokudaimyo.com/garb/graph ... nmuriS.jpg

 

Robert

[Ford Hallam]

Robert

 

yes, it's a kanmuri. And not even abstracted

[raiden]

A bit like the idea Musashi made tsuba and even made a few dozen depicting sea cucumbers

 

Off subject, but do I correctly recall that you said that even in the book of Musashi by Tokitsu it is NOT mentioned that he made tsuba?

[raiden]

 

Here is my classic Rakuju, it is of the same proportions of the one on the Kassen Koshirae. In fact the NBTHK thought that Rakuju probably might have had the original to copy from since it is nearly exact. The bone idea is interesting, and I will bounce it off my sensei when I go to Japan next time. It also would be interesting to see what Ito san would say as well. The original tsuba in thsi post looks a bit different than the norm, I am not sure if it is the pic or what, but the rim looks different than those that I have seen in hand that have been determined Jingo or are signed and determined genuine. The missing small holes that are on mine for the Butterfly eyes make one wonder what the design may be - a friend who knows nothing about tsuba thought this design wass a turtle.....

[harvg]

I found this example, at the Boston Museum of Fine Arts, which is almost the exact same as mine. Just a matter of whether mine is authentic, or a copy of this one. Note: Mine is round, while this one is a rounded rectangle.

 

Harvey G.

 

 

 

 

Tsuba with design of silkworms

 

Japanese, Edo period, early to mid-19th century

By Shimizu Shigenaga, Japanese

School Jingo School, Japanese

[Marius]

I found this example, at the Boston Museum of Fine Arts, which is almost the exact same as mine.

 

"Almost" = "not" Yours is round (maru-gata). I'd love to see some pics of it, so I am waiting patiently

[Curran]

You did well. You found some answers on your own.

 

Shigenaga = 5th gen of the Shimizu / Jingo line we were talking about.

As you noted, shape tends to be a bit oblong.

 

As per the 2nd photo you provided, yours is very round.

Also the mimi looks hammered in a very un-5th gen way.

I suspect that David is right and that yours is a 19th century copy. Probably early 19th century, but hard to tell from photographs provided so far.

 

Is this a bad thing?

Not really. Looks like a good old copy of a particularly good older 18th century design.

Definitely better than much of the ebay detritus, but not a national treasure or super high grade desirable.

Excellent design and seems a decent level of workmanship. A modern one of even remotely comparable skill would probably cost you more than that one did.

[Ford Hallam]

Mike Y.

 

yes, that's right, Tokitsu's book makes no mention of any form of metalwork at all. The wood sculpture and paintings are referenced though. And if memory serves Tokitsu is referring to an earlier, mid Edo, account. I can scan the relevant pages for you if you like.

[raiden]

Ford,

please do, I wonder if we have the same version of his book.

Mike

[raiden]

BTW Ford, you never answered my FB message.

[Ford Hallam]

Fb message?..when? could you send it again.

 

I'll find the piece and scan it for you.

[Soshin]

Hi Harvey G.,

 

From looking at your new photos it appears to be a later copy of the Shimizu/Jingo master piece. The rim is not the characteristic Jingo shape nor is the finish of the rim. The overall shape of your tsuba is round not often seen in Shimizu/Jingo tsuba. The oblong shape of Shimizu/Jingo tsuba is one of the many common characterics of the school's work and is called "Aori-Gata". I will post a photo over the weekend that will illustrate what I am talking about.

[Soshin]

Hi Harvey G.,

 

Here is an example of the aori-gata shape that is characteristic of the Shimizu/Jingo school. The name of the shape "aori" are from the fur or leather saddle flaps used on a Japanese saddle. The tsuba that I am using as my example of this shape is new to my collection. I hope you find this information helpful.

 

[TosoguCz]

But I will be happy to stand corrected if you produce some evidence, not only a scholar's description After all, it is fun, no?

 

Mariusz,

I can't produce evidence, I can only explain why I see there butterflies, not hand bones. Conclusions are up to you all of course.

It's only matter of stylization grade.

[Ford Hallam]

:D Well I think this pretty much demonstrates the design is almost certainly NOT conceived as butterflies.

Not a single line that Roman has helpfully sketched actually relates to what we see on the tsuba.

 

Having said that, Roman's design might actually make a pleasing tsuba in it's own right.

[Marius]

I can't produce evidence, I can only explain why I see there butterflies, not hand bones.

 

@Roman:

Very nice drawing, as Ford has noted It is such a pleasure to discuss these interpretations :D

 

@Harvey:

Thanks for the new pictures

 

I might be wrong but this tsuba looks modern made. The seppa dai and the sukashi look awkward, the "patina" looks artificial (and it covers the copper sekigane), there are many scratch marks (to prepare the surface for the coating?) and also very strange traces of machine tooling (?) on the plate, especially those adjacent to the rim.

 

Pic of the strange marks is attached.

[Ford Hallam]

I'm afraid I must agree with Mariusz and say this is a modern made copy. We can clearly see radial lines and chatter marks on the inner edge against the rim. This suggests that the basic plate was shaped firstly on a lathe. That's also why it's round.

 

The other linear marks around the edge of the seppa-dai area are suggestive of an angle grinder wheel. Note to slight but consistent curve to the lines.

 

Also worth noting is how the design has been altered quite significantly from the original Jingu design. This is inevitable when a design is copied but not properly understood and is seen merely as random shapes.