Medina San1 Posted March 3, 2014 Report Posted March 3, 2014 Hello to all thank you very much for all your assistance in the translating department. This nakago was very easy to translate as it was so clean and done with authority the strokes look very strong. I opened the Nihonto Kuza and it was the very first picture I saw. I will need to take another look at the blade it was in the Kamakura style I think. Dan Quote
Medina San1 Posted March 3, 2014 Author Report Posted March 3, 2014 Hello to all thank you very much for all your assistance in the translating department. This nakago was very easy to translate as it was so clean and done with authority the strokes look very strong. I opened the Nihonto Kuza and it was the very first picture I saw. I will need to take another look at the blade it was in the Kamakura style I think. Dan your thoughts and comments on this nakago are welcome, what do you think? Dan Quote
runagmc Posted March 4, 2014 Report Posted March 4, 2014 Comparing ALL the workmanship to be seen with verified examples may help you decide if your's may be shoshin or not... Also, it helps if you focus on shoshin examples with similar dates... Quote
Stephen Posted March 4, 2014 Report Posted March 4, 2014 it also would help to have full shots of the nakago sans saya and habaki right side up. Quote
Eric H Posted March 4, 2014 Report Posted March 4, 2014 At first glance the mei looks to be shoshin. Eric Quote
Jacques Posted March 4, 2014 Report Posted March 4, 2014 Hi At first glance the mei looks to be shoshin. Eric Don't think so http://www.aoijapan.com/img/sword/2012/12022-2.jpg Quote
Stephen Posted March 4, 2014 Report Posted March 4, 2014 Thats why i requested full shots right side up so one can do a sideXside Quote
Gabriel L Posted March 4, 2014 Report Posted March 4, 2014 Don't think so http://www.aoijapan.com/img/sword/2012/12022-2.jpg You're rejecting this thread's Meiji gannen (1) mei based on a single Meiji 33 mei? Why would you use a sword dated 32 years later (or rather, why would you only cite that example)? I'm not arguing it IS shōshin, just questioning your methodology (edit: or at least your scant explanation) for a smith with plenty of variation in his signature. People may want to refer back to this thread, more examples to consider, and the gimei chapter in the Nihontō Koza. If I had nothing better to do I'd create a big photoshop mei comparison like I have often done previously, but I don't have the time… perhaps someone else wants to try. And yes, Dan, you need to post a single overall shot of the nakago… it is very difficult to properly assess and compare piecemeal like this, although the detail is appreciated. Quote
takakage Posted March 4, 2014 Report Posted March 4, 2014 Hi, May be i'm wrong but i find taganes strange for the kanji sada. Quote
raiden Posted March 5, 2014 Report Posted March 5, 2014 What type of hamon and jigane does it have, Gassan Teiichi have many fakes made, even now that i have seen that were put on ebay by a bad dealer. Quote
Jacques Posted March 5, 2014 Report Posted March 5, 2014 Hi, Gabriel Please, see no offense but it seems you don't know what you must looking at . Gassan School has a peculiar manner to engrave their mei. Even if there were variations during the career of Sasakazu there are some traits which are always present. Patrick (Takakage) is right, this tagane must be straight and slightly pot-bellied. I add i don't find the tagane makura which is a kantei point for Gassan School. Yasurime are weak specially the kesho yasuri. Two sample of the beginning ot Meiji era : Quote
Gabriel L Posted March 5, 2014 Report Posted March 5, 2014 …it seems you don't know what you must looking at. Jacques, as I explicitly stated in my post, I wasn't questioning your conclusion—only your (complete lack of) explanation, which didn't allow readers any hint as to what you were trying to show. I am aware of how to compare mei; my comment wasn't based on any such comparison. Indeed, as I indicated I didn't even try to compare them. So for you to write "you don't know what you must be looking at" is (very mildly) offensive whether you meant it to be so or not. My laziness last night in not trying to assess the mei or deliver my own conclusion/theory is not anything to be proud of, but neither is criticizing my capability (amateur though it may be) baselessly. I'd like to think that there may be a linguistic issue here and you are simply not aware of how strongly negative the expression "you don't know what you are looking at" is in English… It's only one step shy of "you are an idiot who has overstepped his bounds." A more diplomatic phrase would have been "you may not be aware of some of these kantei points" or similar. Gassan School has a peculiar manner to engrave their mei. Even if there were variations during the career of Sasakazu there are some traits which are always present. Patrick (Takakage) is right, this tagane must be straight and slightly pot-bellied. I add i don't find the tagane makura which is a kantei point for Gassan School. Yasurime are weak specially the kesho yasuri. Thank you for adding specific commentary to help people understand where you are coming from. This is all I wanted. Two sample of the beginning ot Meiji era : Much appreciated. Quote
Brian Posted March 5, 2014 Report Posted March 5, 2014 Gabriel, Ignore Jacques lack of tact, it is a trait he wasn't born with. The rest of us have experience with your detailed comparissons and anayses...so we know that you are far from ignorant and very well experienced in this. Knowing the huge amount of effort you put into your usual research, you are allowed to take a break from them whenever you feel like it Brian Quote
Eric H Posted March 5, 2014 Report Posted March 5, 2014 Even if there were variations during the career of Sasakazu there are some traits which are always present. Both pictures were posted by Jacques....one from Aoi and the other as oshigata. Eric Quote
Eric H Posted March 6, 2014 Report Posted March 6, 2014 during the career of Sasakazu there are some traits which are always present. which traits to be concise? For instance the kanji Gassan and Sadakazu...these kanji should be closely examined. The differences in the course of his career are obvious and well presented in the comparison above. I add some other pics from his early stage, namely from end Shinshinto and start Genji. The quality of his chiseling is also inconsistent. Last pic shows a shoshin and a gimei oshigata. Eric Quote
Eric H Posted March 6, 2014 Report Posted March 6, 2014 Link please Aoi website...and yes they are all NBTHK Hozon and higher. Well, the few pictures I have posted show how difficult it is to reveal the authenticity of his mei based solely on „Gassan and Sadakazu“. Generally his mei is carefully executed as can be expected for he was one of the great horimono carvers of the Bakumatsu period, beside Yoshitane and Nobuhide. Eric Quote
Jacques Posted March 6, 2014 Report Posted March 6, 2014 Hi, Eric, Give the link please. Why a lying ? It's not this one on AOI art Quote
Eric H Posted March 8, 2014 Report Posted March 8, 2014 Why a lying ? tz-tz-tz...you are always good for a surprise ... the posted pic was intended to show his skill in carving as well the seldom seeing of a horimono on a nakago. The Genji ninen tanto with koshirae was available at Aoi for US$ 15,000.00 in October 2011. I don‘t like to start a fruitless discussion on the authenticity of the mei. My advice to you, based on my own experience, is: post the image to Aoi, you will get an answer from Tsuruta san...he offers this service free of charge. Eric Quote
Jacques Posted March 8, 2014 Report Posted March 8, 2014 HI, The Genji ninen tanto with koshirae was available at Aoi for US$ 15,000.00 in October 2011 This one is obviously gimei and the picture is not made by Tsuruta san (i will ask him the next october).. Quote
Eric H Posted March 8, 2014 Report Posted March 8, 2014 This one is obviously gimei and the picture is not made by Tsuruta san (i will ask him the next october).. Why wait and waste time until October? If you are so eager to prove your statement please post the picture immediately to Aoi. I am myself very interested in Tsuruta san‘s reply. I suppose the picture was not made by Tsuruta san personally but by one of his employees. Eric Quote
Tokaido Posted March 8, 2014 Report Posted March 8, 2014 Maybe I found the original pictures with the "salesnumber" in my archive Please notice that I divided the detail photos because of the original size >1,6MB Greetings Andreas PS: obviously a hosho-utsushi Quote
Gabriel L Posted March 8, 2014 Report Posted March 8, 2014 So to review, Eric is not a pathological liar :lol: and the "obviously gimei" blade received Tokubetsu Hozon . This is funnier stuff than most sitcoms. Quote
cabowen Posted March 8, 2014 Report Posted March 8, 2014 the boshi doesn't bring to mind the Hosho school.... Quote
Jacques Posted March 8, 2014 Report Posted March 8, 2014 Hi, Would love to see the origami.. I've seen this kind of ji San (山) only on sword made by Sadayoshi and not in keisho writing Nevertheless nothing invalidates what i said about permanent features. Quote
Eric H Posted March 8, 2014 Report Posted March 8, 2014 I've seen this kind of ji San (山) only on sword made by Sadayoshi and not in keisho writing Conclusion, what YOU haven‘t seen doesn‘t exist. Andreas you are right its exactly this tanto. I have recently read in a political analysis that foolishness is a raw material that grows again. I‘m very thin-skinned when someone calls me to be a liar. Eric Quote
Brian Posted March 8, 2014 Report Posted March 8, 2014 Jacques, Not sure exactly how many warnings you expect me to give you. Sorry, but I cannot give you any further leeway. Calling a member a liar is not something I can tolerate. I could ban you permanently, but I'll try a ban for a month and see if that gives you some time to think. Brian Quote
cabowen Posted March 8, 2014 Report Posted March 8, 2014 Conclusion, what YOU haven‘t seen doesn‘t exist. Eric We have seen this same "logic" from him before....Sometimes it just isn't worth the time and trouble. Quote
george trotter Posted March 10, 2014 Report Posted March 10, 2014 Seriously, this MUST be a language-cultural thing....this (to us) apparently "reversed" logic. Maybe Jacques could be "encouraged" to explain himself more clearly and give sources at the beginning, instead of expecting members to "prove him wrong" withoiut them being able to see why he takes his position. Rather than ban him, let's just keep trying to educate him in (our) logic?...maybe just ask him for sources before even answering his comment...? On this subject of cultural-language differences...I'd even like to see those other "different logic" thinkers return...you know who I mean. If we can get them to to produce more than just cryptic one word comments or one sentence comments (or pictures of dogs and rabbits) and actually give a position and a reason (sources) then discussion would expand and study would progress nicely. No one likes to be wrong, but it is easier to accept if it is explained clearly, step by step....and respectfully. Worth a try? regards, Quote
Jean Posted March 10, 2014 Report Posted March 10, 2014 No one likes to be wrong George, Even Japanese specialists admit they are wrong when it is the case, nobody is perfect. Even books are not. Quote
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