Did they normally make more than 1 set of same design tsuba

[darbianco]

Hi, Everyone...just a quick question. was it common to make more than 1 set of tsuba of the same design? reason i ask, i have a really beautiful wakizashi tsuba with gold dragonflies ...and i just found a photo in a museum of the identical tsuba but for katana. did they usually only make 1 set with that particular design ?

 

Thanks

Darren

[b.hennick]

Some designs were copied many times. It was normal for a school to make multiples of a piece. It was also usual for good designs to be made by several different schools. Minor variations will always occur in hand-made work.

Yes daisho tsuba i.e. big and smaller tsuba for mounting on a daisho are not uncommon.

[darbianco]

Thanks Barry for the info this helps a lot.

[Ken-Hawaii]

That's interesting, Barry. I asked a tsubashi in Okayama if he made more than one copy, & I had the impression that I'd insulted him. Hmm.

 

Ken

[Brian Ayres]

Darren,

 

Please share both a photo of your tsuba and the museum piece with credit to the museum for comparison.

 

As Barry said, lots of designs were copied many times. It would be fun to compare your tsuba to the other.

[Curran]

It happens.

Different generations of the same school would make the same design from their books, or another school might copy a design. Sometimes someone special ordered a tsuba and more than one was made at the time. Theoretically, the best one went to the owner and the other(s) destroyed, but more likely sold later.

 

I have a complicated gold inlaid Kozenji tsuba purchased from a privately owned Philadelphia museum and doubted I'd ever see another like it. Then one day I was flipping through the Boston Museum collection, and there was its twin or mate sitting unidentified in their collection.

[Ford Hallam]

I'd say this is more the rule than the exception.

 

The important thing to remember is that most tsuba-shi weren't artists in the sense we understand the term today and especially in the West. Originality wasn't necessarily of huge concern, what was of greater importance was the expressiveness of the workmanship.

 

The greater number of Edo period studios produced their works based on designs provided by workshop design books that were produced specifically for this purpose. Many of these design books still exist and are still reprinted today.

 

And even where an artist was producing their own designs they would frequently reproduce the successful or popular ones. Kano Natsuo produced at least half and dozen of his famous peony and butterfly tsuba, his koi tsuba as well as his plumb blossom kozuka.

 

Curran, I've never heard this story, do you have a source for it?

Sometimes someone special ordered a tsuba and more than one was made at the time. Theoretically, the best one went to the owner and the other(s) destroyed, but more likely sold later.

[Ludolf Richter]

I own a Tsuba made by Goto Teijo which is nearly identical with the one from Haynes "Gai so Shi" on page 89,although there is a lot more Gold,the Daisho probably made for a high-ranking Samurai.Ludolf

[Peter Bleed]

I think Ford hit the nail on th head by saying that most pre-modern tsuba-ji were not "artists." They made tsuba (!) and probably got paid by the pound. In fact, I suspect that there were late Edo period tsuba-ji who may have made hundreds of guards, but less than 10 designs. I also suspect that specialists (let's call'em "hacks") may have only done parts of some guards. Think of those 3 way hole elements on the mimi of some Namban tsuba. They just make me feel like one guy did the plat, and other did the mimi.

There were two rationale.

First, the traditional Japanese emphasis on technique demanded that "shokunin" practice and practice, and practice until they completely mastered the designs of their "school". Why do you think all those "Owari" bird designs are so similar . Because guys made them and made them and made them. That's a good example, because it shows that if complete designs were not replicated, design elements were. Second, the apprenticeship of the Edo era was certainly exploitive. Apprentices just had to crank out the goods.

In this - as so many other areas - the NMB tends to ignore the mass and focus on the exceptional. Think about all the stuff you/we look thru to find the items we judge worthy. Think of the times we have found pieces that look like a "tri-sho."

But, hey, Natsuo had to do some "student work."

Peter

[Jaron]

Hello members, my apologies for adding to an old topic but I am hoping to get input from those who commented before, and others of course, since I can’t message directly to some.  I hope Mr. Hallum gets a chance to see this.

 

A new collector, I am looking at buying a Goto Teijo signed Tsuba that looks identical in design to Ludolph’s post above.  I have included the one I am looking at to compare with the two posted above, one being in Hayne’s listing.  I have also included others I have found to add to the discussion.  The one I have is a green/silver hue, shiny, with the nanako where there is no carving.  You can see the gold is inlay with a decent thickness to it on the figures.  One area of concern, other than authenticity, is that compared to others, the bridge/dock post tops look smashed.  I assume it could be normal wear but that is why I am posting for input. Looking close with a loop, it is appears to be decent workmanship in any case.

 

I would appreciate any thoughts in addition to the original since this post is 2014.   

 

Thank you.

 

Jeff

[ROKUJURO]

Jaron,

all three do not look like authentic TSUBA to me, but later copies (not good ones...).

[Jaron]

Thanks Jean. I appreciate your expertise.

[Shugyosha]

Hi Jeff,

To answer your question, it’s not unusual for all fittings to share similar designs. Some were popular themes offered for sale “off the peg”, often referred to as shiiremono (shop stock) or hamamono (things sold at the harbour). It doesn’t help that there were design books circulating with common themes so the same themes can crop up in different schools and with different methods of execution. 
 

To echo what Jean said, these don’t look like Goto quality work and I’d recommend having a Google of work by this school and artist to get a view on the type of quality you should look for. 

[Jaron]

Great advice John. I will do that. Thanks.

[Steves87]

The first one looks, and may be, "authentic" (in the sense of construction), but it is damaged through wear; possibly impact. The other two look very much as Jean says.

On reviving the thread, possibly this is a good segway for @Spartancrest to post about the Kofu rain dragons in relation to the op's first question? 

[Spartancrest]

10 hours ago, Jaron said:

I am looking at buying a Goto Teijo signed Tsuba that looks identical in design to Ludolph’s post above.

There are a great deal of these rather poor reproductions, first thing is the Tagane-ato [punch marks] around the nakago-ana are all identical - this won't happen with two tsuba mounted on different swords. The nanako-ji [dot background] is patchy especially on the ura side. Also the ategane [metal fill in of the hitsu-ana] are not 'added' they are impressed in the design - try as you might you can't pop them out! Two versions are made one with one open hitsu the other with both 'closed'.

Here is another to add to your image collection - a current auction of two guards [the rusty sukashi is the better buy!] https://www.jauce.com/auction/r1088277860  If you are looking for good Goto - avoid this pattern and really check the detailing.

   

 

https://www.ebay.com.au/itm/385491016393 This one is overpriced by at least $200 US. 

https://www.ebay.com.au/itm/394448725570  overpriced by $190. US.

https://www.ebay.com.au/itm/325609461020  overpriced by $340. US.

 

By the way the Haynes version is also a poor copy as is Ludolf Richter's - the "experts" can't always be right. How in hell did Haynes not see that his example was crap? Was he trying to get more money for it?

 

[Jaron]

I appreciate the quick response from everyone.  When I got it to review I was immediately suspect and the feedback was a great learning experience as well as confirmation of that. I do like the Goto school and I have a Tsuka with some nice Goto fittings and was recently given attribution  at the Shinsa in San Fran this year, as well as a Tsuba with more identifiable and crisper “fish roe”.

 

This one has been returned. Thanks all!

 

Jaron

[zanilu]

Hi

 

This is an old thread:

 

In the mean time others popped up. Of the reported example none is a cast reproduction, as far as I can tell. All are traditionally made.

 

Regards

Luca

 

[Spartancrest]

9 hours ago, zanilu said:

All are traditionally made.

Spot on!  There are some beautiful pieces all made by hand, utsushi I would say - emulations not copies.

 

On 4/13/2023 at 12:28 PM, Steves87 said:

On reviving the thread, possibly this is a good segway for @Spartancrest to post about the Kofu rain dragons in relation to the op's first question? 

Well there is an ongoing study of just one design style "Kofu Ju Toshimasa" Rain Dragons. [Not that every one is by Toshimasa, because they are by numerous makers, which is the point.]

Thus far there are around 100 in the same design and a few 'offshoot' versions - every one is slightly different and each has been hand finished with the exception of one cast in Iron and left unfinished. I have so far managed to find approx 2.5 a month on average but there must be many more held in private collections and untraceable. There is another thread on this subject.

[Spartancrest]

https://www.jauce.com/auction/t1088772278  The double filled hitsu version - very poorly made.

The single hitsu daisho pair - https://www.ebay.com.au/itm/314536012999 - likewise very poor.