How Important is Provenance?

[Jean]

In fact, provenance (IMHO) is an added value to some art objects but not all, I am not sure that, for example, a Masamune or a Go Yoshihiro will see their prices affected by their provenance, but a less value sword yes. Same applies to a Van Gogh or Rembrandt, their value should not be affectef by their provenance.

 

Question: which art object price can be influence by provenance?

 

IMO, it depends on the artist fame and quality of the work. A masterpiece by a grand maître should not see its price influenced by provenance.

[Surfson]

This is an interesting thread, and Darcy's post is truly fabulous. I have a dai-sho that has a "story" attached to it, that might catalyze further discussion. The story is related by a past owner of the dai-sho, and involves previous owners (and a sort of local provenance) Robert Cole (I believe a former President of the JSSUS) and Mike Christianson, who I believe is a NMB member. As the story goes, this dai-sho was given by Kodama, a behind the scenes yakuza sort, to Kakuei Tanaka, who became the Prime Minister of Japan. Once he rose to office, Tanaka dumped the swords through channels due to the connection with the unsavory Kodama, and they found their way to the US. I bought them since the price was right and they have a fabulous dai-sho set of guribori mounts, that are hard to find. If anybody has any thoughts about the story or the swords, I would love to hear them. Maybe Mike will catch this topic as well. Here is a link to the story and a few photos. Cheers, Bob

http://silverlakes.homestead.com/Dai_Sho.html

[Jean]

Did you have the blades papered, Robert?

[Surfson]

The katana has the NTHK paper shown in the link (Den Kashu Nobutomo, though the blade has the feel of being much older to me), the wakizashi hasn't been papered, but I am unlikely to submit it, as I don't doubt it and I don't usually submit wakizashi unless they are made by a quite famous maker. Cheers, Bob

[Eric H]

As the story goes, this dai-sho was given by Kodama, a behind the scenes yakuza sort, to Kakuei Tanaka, who became the Prime Minister of Japan.

Well, such stories should always be viewed with extreme caution. The daisho of course has a „story“ but it lacks the level of highgrade art-swords together with a direct connection to a important historic person or family.

There is a Go Yoshihiro, nicknamed Nabeshima Go, who answers all expectations as to art-sword and provenance. A dream package.

 

Eric

[Surfson]

I agree Eric. I placed no stock in the story at all, though I wouldn't mind if it were true. It does serve as an example for this thread. Cheers, Bob

[Eric H]

PROVENANCE

 

Gloves $ 300 + 1964 fight Feb.25 + Muhammad Ali = $ 836,500

 

Eric

[Mark S.]

Many times 'provenance' has to be determined by the 'status' of the previous owners. If the 'provenance' of an item is tied to owners who are in themselves considered to be 'masters' or have their opinions valued in their selections of items, as opposed to the previous owners just being 'famous'... then provenance does seem to matter more. Would you pay more for a tea bowl owned by Rikyu (considered to be THE master of tea and of his discernment of tea items), or a tea bowl owned by Justin Bieber because he thought it was 'pretty' and could simply afford to purchase an expensive tea bowl because he is rich and 'famous'... or more likey 'infamous'?

 

It would be the same for swords I would suppose. Would a sword attributed to having been owned for several generations by a famous samurai family, or a sword owned by a famous polisher because he thought it was a masterpiece be worth more (provenance-wise) than a sword owned by a wealthy famous businessman? I do believe so, because we sometimes 'trust' the discernment of certain people based on what they know vs who they are.

 

Of course, the above does not include what it takes to 'prove' provenance... only whether or not paying for provenance is legitimate. Sometimes we pay for others discernment.

[Surfson]

It's funny Mark. I bought a vintage guitar amplifier owned by a famous recording engineer (in fact this amp was used to record many famous artists such as the Grateful Dead). When I bought it, I assumed that it would be a wonderful functioning amp, and I was not disappointed. In fact, it's the most beautiful sounding amp that I have. Since it was bought on ebay, this assumption couldn't be tested until I had already purchased it. This is a case similar to Mark's, i.e. trusting the judgement of the previous owner. Cheers, Bob BTW, the previous owner wrote a notarized letter documenting all the performers that had recorded with this amp.