Why submit a tosogu to Hozon shinsa?

[christianmalterre]

Henry,

 

i just allow me so to jump in again...

you do quote something extremely important here in saying:

"How would you be so sure that it is authentic? You can't be there at the time the piece was made"

 

me do agree!

same way i do agree to the authentification of your´s above shown Nobuie Tsuba-(which in mine humble view)...sorrowly is none of the main generation Nobuie.

 

But here again-you see...

(who cares?)

Christian

[Henry Wilson]

Then why did it receive papers?

[christianmalterre]

This!

is an good question...

(please do NOT see this as an insult!)

 

Christian

[Henry Wilson]

Whatever.

[Steve Waszak]

Should the opinions of shinsa teams be disregarded because they will error on occasion? Should children disregard their parents because they too are imperfect and error on occasion? Should I disregard the investment advice I got from Warren Buffet because he is not always right? Your flawed logic suffers from the "Nirvana" fallacy: we should reject shinsa because it is not perfect. It doesn't need to be perfect to provide value. To provide value it needs to be seen as reliable and in most cases, shinsa teams seem to be the most reliable option, especially for those outside of Japan. And what possibly could make them seem reliable? Well, how about those glowing resumes that list the decades of experience they have? Just like that piece of paper on my physician's wall that reads: MD...

 

*Edited by Admin to remove personal comments*

 

You comment at the end of your post that "those familiar with native fluency in the reading and writing of the language have abilities and advantages ( they can often judge the veracity of a signature simply by inspection of the strength, fluidity, and confidence of the strokes) that non-natives such as yourself do not have." In his 1972 book Sukashi Tsuba, Sasano sensei had the tsuba below as a shodai Yamakichibei. I would assume that Sasano would "count" as a "knowledgeable, experienced authority" on iron tsuba for you, no? Would you say that he has a "native fluency in the reading of writing of the language," and thus has "abilities and advantages" that non-natives such as I (and you) don't have? This tsuba now has NBTHK juyo papers to Nidai Yamakichibei. So which is it? Is it shodai or nidai?

 

In any event, it is clear that I will never convince you or your ilk, and you certainly will not convince me. We might have better luck in person, though: Any chance you'll be at the SF sword show?

[Steve Waszak]

if I believed the piece in question to be authentic

How would you be so sure that it is authentic? You can't be there at the time the piece was made to verify yourself. You need to compare it with something else that you think is real and how do you know for sure that the test sample is authentic too? You seem very confident of yourself and your grasp of tosogu.

 

 

Hi Henry,

 

Yes, I am confident. To a point. But then, I specialize quite narrowly. I'm not all over the place in my study and focus. There are many areas of tosogu that don't appeal to me, especially later (post-early-Edo) tosogu. I am also extremely practiced in inductive analysis and reasoning. You are raising good questions. Well done. It's questions like these that few seem to ask. In short, it's important to have access to enough examples which, via inductive analysis of patterns, traits, methods, tendencies, and idiosyncrasies allow for a clear baseline to be established against which to assess any new works by that tsubako. It's also useful to discuss such pieces with other collectors who think the same way (apply the same analytical methods). Further, investing in learning in depth about the specific culture (time, place, events, etc...) of the period from which the pieces come (are believed to come) helps to assess the likelihood that a given work actually does come from that time (this is another line of inductive analysis that I have not frequently seen employed, but some of the more fruitful thinking in this way has been done by Nobuiye scholars in recent decades). Finally, the matter of authenticity is a slightly different one from that of quality. That is, assessing quality (according to either some set of established criteria, or one's own, or both) is a simpler task (though not necessarily easy) than establishing authenticity of some works, especially those predating Edo times. Sometimes, though, the two will intersect in a way so that one reinforces the other: the high quality (as well as certain idiosyncrasies and cultural contexts suggestive) of a piece will be strongly indicative of authenticity. I don't think I'm really saying anything here, though, that you don't know, Henry...

 

Steve

[raiden]

This is the immediate question the skeptic would ask (all in the interests in learning, of course... : what is the foundational document or other information that allows either Homma sensei or Sato sensei (or anyone else, for that matter) to know what specific, exact, concrete detail in the "writing style" of Tadahiro (the generation of your Tadahiro) establishes confident dating? HOW do these sensei know? Not who taught them, as this does not answer the question. But what objective detail/information exists for them to know? Are there period documents, contemporary to Tadahiro's time and verifiable (reliably verifiable)? Sorry, but given the realities of iemoto-ism, I remain dubious of such information pipelines. Again, I am NOT saying that they must be wrong or false, just that I don't have confidence that this information is unquestionably factual.

 

I spoke of evidence in my earlier post, Tanobe Sensei emphasizes this. OK so how did they know the date? I asked, as I was amazed. They know this by the study of many RECORDED pieces and from records from Tadayoshi and the Nabeshima han. He showed me the old books, with the explanation. It was very educational. There always will be skeptics, but I am more skeptical of someones opinion that has had no access to great examples in hand, no formal training or access to the old records and books. How do I know the Mona Lisa is real? IHow do you know the declaration of Independence is genuine? Steve anything for you is suspect if you were not there when it was made. So we rely on information, facts, proof, records and proven examples to come to a educated conclusion. I ask again, would you buy a $30-40K tsuba or blade without ANY certification? If so would you be that sure of your self? Very few people would, but those that do (I know a few, and have done it myself) do so as we have had formal study from reliable sources. Of course everyone is entitled to their own opinion, and I can respect that, if they can respect mine. And my opinion is that a Shinsa is a very good resource for both beginners and the advanced collector (I know very few people that could authenticate a real Sukehiro signature with confidence here in the states). Shodai / Nidai Yamakichibei? whats important here is that they are in the same opinion that it is a high level piece, of the same school, and can be either 1st or 2nd. That is way close enough for me as far as educated opinions go. they did not say shodai Yamakichi then say Myochin later assuming it was the same shinsa. That would be a problem as far as I was concerned and would ask why, as they will explain.

[Steve Waszak]

Leaving this thread now... Anyone who wishes to contact me via PM or email for further discussion is welcome to. I want to thank all those who have already contacted me with their support. It is appreciated.

 

Cheers,

 

Steve

[cabowen]

 

You comment at the end of your post that "those familiar with native fluency in the reading and writing of the language have abilities and advantages ( they can often judge the veracity of a signature simply by inspection of the strength, fluidity, and confidence of the strokes) that non-natives such as yourself do not have." In his 1972 book Sukashi Tsuba, Sasano sensei had the tsuba below as a shodai Yamakichibei. I would assume that Sasano would "count" as a "knowledgeable, experienced authority" on iron tsuba for you, no? Would you say that he has a "native fluency in the reading of writing of the language," and thus has "abilities and advantages" that non-natives such as I (and you) don't have? This tsuba now has NBTHK juyo papers to Nidai Yamakichibei. So which is it? Is it shodai or nidai?

 

In any event, it is clear that I will never convince you or your ilk, and you certainly will not convince me. We might have better luck in person, though: Any chance you'll be at the SF sword show?

 

Again, your logic is flawed- non sequitur- it does not follow: the fact that two experts disagree (quite narrowly actually) and have slightly differing opinions, has nothing as all to do with my comments about the advantages that native readers have over non-natives. Your example does illustrate my earlier point that at times there is disagreement among experts. That is usually the rule, rather than the exception, in most fields. Again, it doesn't discredit the process, it simply confirms that sometimes, when data is scarce and/or inconclusive, opinions differ...It does beg the question though, which is: if the experts disagree, despite their knowledge, experience, and superior data set, how can someone with less ever hope to have a better grasp and more importantly, since we are dealing with opinions, have anything more than yet another opinion?

 

In short, it's important to have access to enough examples which, via inductive analysis of patterns, traits, methods, tendencies, and idiosyncrasies allow for a clear baseline to be established against which to assess any new works by that tsubako. It's also useful to discuss such pieces with other collectors who think the same way (apply the same analytical methods). Further, investing in learning in depth about the specific culture (time, place, events, etc...) of the period from which the pieces come (are believed to come) helps to assess the likelihood that a given work actually does come from that time (this is another line of inductive analysis that I have not frequently seen employed,

 

I couldn't agree more. And why, after spending 10 years in the US looking at every gendaito I could, talking with everyone I could find who had collected or spent time researching them, reading every book with even the most tenuous connection to the topic, I realized that in order to take the next step, I had to actually go to Japan, immerse myself in the culture, learn the language, actually meet and talk to the smiths whose work I had seen, dig up period literature, talk to collectors, veterans, government people, relatives of smiths, etc. And after a decade of spending most every free moment with either a sword, dusty document or book in hand (ok, some time a sake cup as well), or a person with a lifetime of experience in front of me, I began to put together a set of data that actually allowed for a thorough and meaningful analysis. When I compare the point I was able to reach in the US with where I was able to go in Japan, it was like a trip to the post office versus going to the moon.

 

*Edited by Admin*

 

I will not be at the San Francisco show, but if you happen to make it to Tampa, I would be more than happy to introduce you to the members of the shinsa team. Perhaps the opportunity to meet such people and discuss your observations and theories would be of interest to you....

 

I admire your curiosity and hope you will continue to persevere; to paraphrase Browning, "ah, but a man's reach should exceed his grasp, or what's a shinsa for?".

 

No, you won't convince me, I am afraid, that you can get to the moon by car. And without tasting the fruit, I can not expect you will ever know its taste. Such is life.

[christianmalterre]

somedays....

Chris,with due respect to your´s personal experience(s) spread out here...

me do think it´s better so to stay in those boots you did learn to walk in....Not?

 

schoolars do regularely reflect....

your´s argumentation is sounding quite nebulous for me-me do miss analytical criticism and reflection about other´s people experiences(to say it honest)...

 

 

@Jean-

Cette enquête a été très convaincant et m´a fait personnellement beaucoup de plaisir!

Merci!

Christian

[cabowen]

somedays....

Chris,with due respect to your´s personal experience(s) spread out here...

me do think it´s better so to stay in those boots you did learn to walk in....Not?

 

schoolars do regularely reflect....

your´s argumentation is sounding quite nebulous for me-me do miss analytical criticism and reflection about other´s people experiences(to say it honest)...

 

 

@Jean-

Cette enquête a été très convaincant et m´a fait personnellement beaucoup de plaisir!

Merci!

Christian

 

Not sure I follow.

 

I think I have made my point over and over again, in several ways, in a very concrete manner. Nebulous? How so? No offense meant, but perhaps it is a language issue...

[christianmalterre]

?

it´s not mine brain working here....it´s your´s!

mine hint would be so to reflect....

Not mor nor less...

(you will find it!-no worry!-you do have an well excellent working brain indeed!)

 

Christian

[cabowen]

Hmm, reflect on other's experiences.....

 

I think that is the gist of my comments: people without the knowledge and experience of experts in Japan, and without the access to all the information available to these experts, aren't in any position to debate their opinions on an equal footing.

[Henry Wilson]

This has gotten weird. I am with Chris Bowen on this one. It might be because of my 15 years or so of living in Japan. This is me on the left:

 

I wonder where it comes from and shake my head in despair.....

[christianmalterre]

so you do enter that political direction without using a brain given to you.....?

Good luck! and welcome!

May the force be with you....?

 

That´s not mine level me do discuss...do learn,especially do learn to reflect me would say...

shure but your´s Sensei is working on that already.....mine one did!

 

Christian

[cabowen]

Sorry, I don't follow any of this....

[Loco Al]

This thread has deteriorated most preposterously, but it is very entertaining!

 

Hmm, reflect on other's experiences.....

 

I think that is the gist of my comments: people without the knowledge and experience of experts in Japan, and without the access to all the information available to these experts, aren't in any position to debate their opinions on an equal footing.

 

I think that was very well said, Chris.

 

so you do enter that political direction without using a brain given to you.....?

 

I think that that was intended to be an insult, but probably lost some clarity in translation.

 

I always cheer up immensely if an attack is particularly wounding because I think, well, if they attack one personally, it means they have not a single political argument left.

(Margaret Thatcher)

 

Alan

[John A Stuart]

I also wonder what some of this thread's debate intends. I like philosophical debate, but, Horatio learned there are many philosophies. As long as we arrive at the correct destination, it does not matter the path taken, be it shinsa, private tutorship, experience, qualitative comparison, all or whatever. An open mind, no pre-conceptions, a questioning attitude and a willingness to consider the views of our peers and betters. It doesn't seem so complicated to me. Pointing out errors made in specific cases proves that errors can occur, that is all, it does not abrogate the validity of the process. Until you can provide a process that is perfect or a person/ group who is error free 100% of the time it does nobody a service to abjure shinsa. John

[Steve Waszak]

Hi John,

 

Stopping by for a sec... I hear what you're saying. Let me ask you: do you know individuals involved with Japanese swords and fittings who receive shinsa results as the final word, the unimpeachably correct judgment? I do.

 

This whole argument from me has been about one thing: don't take shinsa judgments as the end of the learning process; take them as grounds for beginning/continuing the learning process. In my experience, there are many who do not see it this way; rather, they do see a shinsa result as "having resolved the matter." As I have said, ad nauseum, I take far less issue with shinsa and its results than I do with those who see those results as "the word of God." When shinsa results are not accompanied by the reasons for those results, it does a disservice to those who have paid good money in order to further their learning by having the piece in question submitted to shinsa. To uncritically accept shinsa results and not insist on the reasoning for those results (which I have said already, should be automatic) is to meekly submit to authority simply because the shinsa team is seen as (and presents itself as) authority. Sorry, but such a position is akin (to me) of "knowing one's place" and supplicating oneself to some "high and mighty" panel. And actually, I don't really have much of a problem, necessarily, with supplicating oneself to that panel, IF that panel is forthcoming with their reasoning. But at the same time, if that reasoning (or result) is not convincing for whatever reason (as in the cases, for instance, when the same panel has contradicted itself in the process of issuing two different opinions on the same piece), it is incumbent upon the submitter to critically question that reasoning, and the result. Not necessarily outright reject it (though that can be valid, as in the case of the "Saotome" Yamakichibei I started with), but critically question. This is not an unreasonable position. For those who see it as such, there clearly is no point at all in continuing the dialogue.

[John A Stuart]

My bugaboo as well. The reasoning behind attribution. Of course some are obvious examples to artist or school and require little in explanation, however to address pieces of multiple generations or obscure provenance or counterintuitive examples, there should be some sort of reference material to learn the reasoning behind such and such a designation forthcoming. This is the major problem and why it will probably never happen is that there is such a volume of pieces and limited time and staff. We just have to make do and as everyone agrees, search out further data subsequently. It's all good. John

[cabowen]

John-

 

Ever have a math or physics class text wherein they develop an equation? They give you the initial conditions, pertinent equations, then say something like "the proof is left as an exercise for the reader" or "the work is left to the reader", and then at the bottom is the final form? Shinsa is like that...As you correctly note, they don't have the time to connect all the dots. Many people don't care. Those that do have a good answer, and can "do the work" as a learning experience.

[John A Stuart]

I think most of us are on the same page here. You can't understand the subject if you only look at the answers in the back of the book, continuing the analogy, but, it does help verify the answer, excepting the odd typo. John

[Guido]

My politics teacher (Prof. Dr. Dr.) always wore a mauve motorcycle leather jacket, and zebra pattern pants. He drove a pink Volkswagen beetle cabriolet with fake tiger fur seat covers, top always down, come rain or snow.

I'm not making this up.

 

His own teachers were quite famous, and authors of many books. I greatly admired him, he was kind of my hero. Not because of those who were his teachers, or because I thought he had a brilliant mind, but because he never, ever, voiced any opinion. He just presented facts, facts coming from a live dedicated to research. He left it to his students to interpret those facts.

 

What can we learn from this? I have no idea, but his story just begged being told. Christian is probably the only one who really understands this.

[Pete Klein]

LOL -- well, let's just say I have a pretty good handle on that also, Guido...!

[christianmalterre]

nice to hear Pete

as long we do not come back to those politics in the 90´s NBTHK,i think we are all quite pretty happy?

and before i do forget...i think especially you Guido,should know about..Not?

 

Christian