Kiyomaro tanto

[w.y.chan]

Hi Guido, out of interest do you know the history of this tanto at Aoi and why this sword did not have Juyo paper?

[Jean]

Eric,

 

Many thanks for the input I did not even know what kind of blade it was

[Guido]

.. and why this sword did not have Juyo paper?

The younger a sword, the harder it is to get papers for it. For example, an Ô-Suriage Muromachi period sword will only go as high as TokuHo, and an Ô-Suriage Shintô only will make Hozon as a general rule.

 

A Shinshintô basically has to be in pristine condition - besides, of course, being considered of the highest level of art - in order to make Jûyô.

 

I've seen many outstanding blades by Shintô and Shinshintô smiths that are Machi-okuri, have a tiny Mune-ware, or a couple of added Mekugi-ana, and therefore never will make Jûyô. A collector who isn't too crazy about papers, and confident in his abilities to judge a sword purely by its artistic merits, can form a fine collection at bargain prices.

 

Many (most?) swords by Taikei Naotane, Suishinshi Masahide, Sa Yukihide and Minamoto Kiyomaro, to name but a few, have "only" TokuHo papers. They're simply "too young".

[Jean]

I totally agree with Guido,

 

And it has not to be even Osuriage, slightly suriage is enough to prevent a Muromachi or later blade going Juyo. There are so many quality swords from these areas remaining ubu.

 

Now concerning this tanto, has it only been submitted to Juyo shinsa?

 

Remember, to have a blade papered you have to submit it to shinsa

 

have seen fantastic Shinshinto blades only TH, too young my friend!!!

 

But once again, shinsa has nothing to do with pricing.

[w.y.chan]

So do you think it is the age of this tanto that prevent it from going Juyo?

[Jean]

Obvious question :

 

Do you know if it has been submitted to Juyo shinsa??

[w.y.chan]

Obvious question :

 

Do you know if it has been submitted to Juyo shinsa??

 

If one ask nearly a $100k for a sword a juyo shinsa submission would have been expected. Question I asked is assuming it has been submitted and there was a knock back, now would you consider it was due to its age?

[Eric H]

Bob

 

That Kiyomaro was assigned Juyo Token in October 2001. The catalogue dates from May 2002. At that time the Kiyomaro was the only item besides all the other 44 swords, all Juto, Tokuju and Bijutsuhin, without the accompanying ZUFU, due to the fact, that the papers were still in Japan.

Katsumitsu pics.

 

Eric

[Jean]

W.Y.

 

I am not sure at all that this tanto went to Juyo shinsa, anyway I am pretty sure there are probably people ready to put up that money (without Juyo papers) only on the name.

 

If Kiyomaro is the equal of Masamune, it means owning a Da Vinci or a Rembrandt, or to be more in line with the 19th century a van Gogh or a Renoir

[Stever]

Calling a work by a smith who’s considered a genius by most professionals and educated collectors underwhelming...

Actually, I commented on a picture of a blade, based on the experience I currently have. Perhaps I should have clarified, but thought it was fairly obvious that I didn't have the blade in hand to give a detailed assessment of the item itself. Again, how many comments are there on the forum by those who didn't have the blade in hand, or know the smith's work intimately? If you want to know why someone made a given statement, ask. You aren't exactly furthering the conversation about the blade either now, are you?

 

I came to this conclusion after taking every opportunity to examine his swords

So is the rule then, "thou shalt not comment on blades by smiths thou dost not have hands-on experience with"?

 

I’m not sure anymore what NMB is all about; not about learning, it seems.

Maybe if more learned members did more to teach, rather than condescend? You don't seem to be too interested in actively helping in the learning process, seems more like you want your own little elite club to me. If I'd known that when I found the forum, I wouldn't have bothered joining, let alone posting.

 

Maybe it should be renamed "Samurai Sword Opinion Board", with an explanation in bold letters that all opinions are equal.

Never said my opinion was worth anything, let alone as much as those of others on the board. It is an opinion, that is all. Maybe we should have a test so you can decide if an opinion is worthy, before people are allowed to post on the board. Would you prefer that?

 

ignorant...whiners

namecalling is completely unnecessary; you've made your position quite clear. Those without experience need not apply.

 

That's enough for me. I don't need to come online to get insulted, I can get that at home. Later, folks. Enjoy.

[Darcy]

Going back over the Juyo consideration for this piece and the price.

 

As a Kiyomaro, the price is low and on price alone you don't have to come to a conclusion that it is or was a Juyo candidate. In general tanto are going to have a bit rougher time I think unless the smith is known for tanto. In my own experience they seem to have been held to a higher standard than daito.

 

I've paid quadruple the price of the lowest priced Juto I've bought for a Hozon sword, so once again the price has to be broken from the papers and the sword and the maker of the piece. You have to be concerned with things in the opposite order.

 

Kiyomaro is one of a handful of smiths that really represent the entire art. For his period, he is the prime artist. The black and white picture that W.Y. linked I think shows off his top work beautifully, I have not seen that kind of piece in my hands, though I think maybe I've seen only three of his works... I forget, they didn't really leave a strong impression.

 

But that said, if you had unlimited funds and wanted to make a representative collection, you'd end up with a Masatsune, Hisakuni, Masamune, Kotetsu and Kiyomaro. That's why the price of a piece like this is going to be high. Maker is held in the highest regard.

 

You see this even in things like pencil sketches by Picasso that he slammed out in five minutes. They go for prices well above masterpieces of other artists though they themselves may be of limited artistic merit (this is an extreme example). Within the body of work of Picasso they are of limited interest, but within the body of works available to collectors they will always have strong interest because of the artist and his importance to the art world.

 

The smith though seems to not have been the most responsible guy, and in not "getting" him I have to say it's not like I've been exposed to the full scope of his work. This is to say, he seemed to entirely be the kind of character who might be inclined to slam out a "pencil sketch" to fulfil an order but that will not be representative of his talent. That may be a reason why the great experts will rave having studied his full output and guys like me won't get it or may judge on a piece like this.

 

In this tanto, I don't particularly like the sugata and the nakago in particular seems in poor proportion. I think he normally signed in sanjimei "Minamoto Kiyomaro" and this would be slightly off the ideal signature (which is a big deal). My analysis could be off as Kiyomaro is not a focus of my study. The part I like least is the whiteness going through the ji, it looks weakly forged and with the reputation of the smith I would be expecting more. Notably the detailed pictures avoid photographing what seems to be the weakest area. Rather, the area immediately above it (as can be identified by a small bright white flaw) is repeated in the place of the weak spot to give the illusion that the entire side of that sword has been traversed in the detail pictures. That implies intent, maybe it is just an error, but it is kind of suspicious that the weakest area of the sword is mistakenly replaced with a stronger portion. Aoi has also had some generous treatment of boshi and other things in oshigata previously that were pointed out on this board in the past.

 

There is a lot to like about it, the hamon looks nice and the jihada is otherwise beautiful, but it does not feel like it stands out like the one on the Fujishiro webpage which is stunning and powerful.

 

Aoi's comment that this is a Samonji copy is a bit odd to me. Sa did not make tanto of this size in general (28cm) and his archetypal boshi is pointed and features a deep turnback, which this piece does not. The hamon does not look much like Sa to me either and Fujishiro notes him as gunome ko-choji or else midareba (which would be in Soshu style). This doesn't strike me as either, it's more of a larger patterned slightly midare gunome. Maybe this is a copy of a specific piece and I'm showing my ignorance of it, I dunno.

 

I want to put in my two bits about keeping incendiary stuff off the board. I left the other one because things got ugly for a while. Please let's stay gentlemen and colleagues, feel free to disagree and remind that we're all students and none of us expert. Also let's allow for the freedom to discuss opinions that maybe the emperor has no clothes, there can be merit to both interpretations when it comes to a smith like this and the fact that study in this field can often be bound to a traditional and accepted viewpoint from which it is not possible to stray. Inbetween we can be reminded to keep our minds open in both directions and it'll help us all learn.

[Brian]

Thank you Darcy for that excellent analysis and the well written note at the end.

I am perhaps at fault for not stepping in sooner in this debate, and for that I apologise. I have been trying to come up with the best course of action to take, and have found it extremely difficult to choose a route to take.

All I ask of the members is that they remain civil and polite. I think there are ways to say things, and perhaps better ways to do things.

I do not want to be accused of running a forum dedicated to opinions. Most of this game is opinions...some more researched than others. But there are a mere handful of experts here, and many trying to advance their knowledge. We have to allow for opinions, and gently nudge them in the right direction in a way that makes it educational.

We are all grown-ups too, and if one or 2 members disagrees with you, then hopefully you can look past that and remember that there are a few thousand readers who are not part of the debate.

I have been put in my place on other forums, and felt very aggrieved. But once I realised that I was there for my own benefit to learn, I put it past me and chose to ignore it or learn from it.

Tough game this. Taking a side alienates the other side, and vice versa. If I appear to be promoting a policy of neutrality or appeasement, it is because controversy does none of us any good.

Please, let's respect each other and allow for personal differences without making it a board issue. There is much good info in this thread, which is why I didn't just delete the whole thing.

To criticise the forum is sad, seeing that it is free and has good intentions. Rather work to improving it. Running away from it is also not very constructive, and does nothing to further the study of Nihonto.

Darcy summed it up nicely when he said "Inbetween we can be reminded to keep our minds open in both directions and it'll help us all learn"

 

Brian

[Guido]

I think he normally signed in sanjimei "Minamoto Kiyomaro" and this would be slightly off the ideal signature (which is a big deal). My analysis could be off as Kiyomaro is not a focus of my study.

Kiyomaro started signing Nijimei in Kaei 3 (1850). He usually dated his work, and since this Tantô lacks a Nenki, I assume it was made in Kaei 4 - that year he avoided dating because of the "unlucky number 4" (if he put a date on a blade that year at all, he used the Eto, i.e. "year of the boar, metal elder brother".

[Guido]

To criticise the forum is sad, seeing that it is free and has good intentions.

I thought that my question about where the NMB is going would be understood as being rhetorical - the way it was meant. Obviously not, and so I apologize for my poor choice of words.

 

Frankly, I'm tired. Tired of people who partially read "The Samurai Sword", and thumbed through "The Connoisseur's Book", thinking this is the same as dedicating decades of one's life to the study of Nihontô. Yes, there are people who study Nihontô for many years and never will understand their essence, and there are a few who achieve impressive knowledge in a few years. But I'm tired of people with a half-knowledge, who think the easiest way to impress others is to criticize, who even go through posts and look for typos because it's the only meaningful contribution they can come up with. I'm loosing my patience, and that is not good.

 

But after all this is my problem, not that of the NMB, and I'll stop giving Brian, who does a great job, grief. As Chief Joseph said: "From where the sun now stands, I will fight no more forever." I'm not running from anything, just wishing everyone good luck on my way out.

[Brian]

I haven't given these stats before, but in the interests of explanation, here are some.

Figures for June 2007, NMB

Total Hits 958,228

Total Files 552,257

Total Pages 40,985

Total Visits 15,429

 

Hits per Hour Ave-1330 Max-3520

Files per Day Ave-18408 Max-23800

Visits per Day Ave-514 Max-613

 

So basically, my point is...Out of all those people who visit here every day/month, you want to let a very small minority irritate you to the point that you want to leave?

C'mon Guido (and others) Other forums have this problem too..and have an "ignore" button where you don't even see certain member's posts anymore. I certainly don't think we need to go that far.

In one thread you post some exceptionally interesting info on Kiyomaru and nengo, and the next one you want to exit gracefully? The same goes for SteveR. There are so many people reading and learning. It just seems to me to be (pardon the offense) but silly to let a tiny minority we don't see eye to eye with, influence us to this extent.

Sometimes these forums get intense, agreed. So take a break for a week. Go outside and see the sun (something I never seem to do anymore) and then come back relaxed a bit. Those things you seem to have lost patience with...they are not as prolific as it may seem I hope. Small things build up, but they are not the majority of postings here and should not be our main focus.

We can't just get fed up with 2 shinsa judges, and write off the whole shinsa process. We can't have a bad deal with 2 dealers and stop dealing with all of them. And I certainly hope we do not see a few posts that irritate us, and write off a whole forum.

Stick around. Otherwise all that knowledge in your head is going to expand and make your head explode unless you let some of it out here

Give it some thought (both of you?)

 

Brian

[Mark]

Group......

 

Has anyone commented on the recent history of this sword? When i saw the post i thought i recognized the sword. I remember seeing it in the Koza (Shinshinto vol. page 317 of the translation by AFU). I did not see anyone mention this so i will add the reference. The article calls the blade a katana but from the pictures of the tang it looks like a taanto and in it seems a match to the pictures of the sword for sale.

 

The artice says this blade was badly damaged by rust, there are before and after pictures of the tang, it was polished and the size greatly reduced, the information mentions the importance of the experiment as it shows how well made Kiyomaro's swords are (as they can survive after such restoation).

 

So if i am correct and this is the same sword then my opinon is--- that it will not make Juyo (at present), as it has been greatly changed from its original shape (and is Shinshinto)-- i doubt anyone knowing this would submit it, but on the potentialy positive price side it is a published sword with interesting recent history.

[Keith Larman]

If Kiyomaro is the equal of Masamune, it means owning a Da Vinci or a Rembrandt, or to be more in line with the 19th century a van Gogh or a Renoir

 

Yeah, I was talking with a friend yesterday about this thread and the name Van Gogh came up in our conversation as well. Lots of parallels. Died very young (Kiyomaro was 41 or 42?, Van Gogh under 40), brilliant, tremendously productive in those years, and seeming came out of no where doing stuff so far beyond everyone else that it was almost scary. Genius like that doesn't come around every day. Nor every decade. Nor even every century.

 

I have the book from the Kotetsu/Kiyomaro exhibition Guido talked about. Amazing book and I'm so glad I got a copy. Kiyomaro's work seems to bloody near electrified in comparison. And I can only imagine (or maybe I can't) how much more amazing they must be in person. I frequently go to a local museum when I need a break -- the Norton Simon fwiw -- and the first place I go is to look at Van Gogh's "Portrait of a Peasant". Photos of the painting do not do it justice. I could stare at that painting for hours. And have. It is alive.

 

Anyway, my point being that Kiyomaro wasn't just "any" smith. He wasn't just a "hot" smith. He wasn't just a "popular" smith. He was a great smith, he was an unusual smith, he was someone who appeared apparently out of nowhere doing just incredible things.

 

So yeah, there's a lot of "sizzle" that goes along with him, but that sizzle has substance underlying it. He is a profoundly important smith and an amazing piece of history. So his work is going to command a tremendous premium. We often talk about "art" here on these boards. With Kiyomaro there is no doubt we're talking about a true artist (whether the work appeals to you or not). And so I think all the comparisons to Picasso, Renoir, Van Gogh, etc. are all dead on. And Van Gogh in particular. It isn't just he work anymore. It is everything. The work, the place in history, etc.

 

And from what I understand that isn't exactly a huge price for Kiyomaro's work... So someone could say "How come it is so cheap?"

 

For many owning a single Kiyomaro could be an entire collection. Lord knows I will never own one unless I happen to find it at a garage sale in gunto mounts...

[w.y.chan]

Mark,

I knew about that tanto in Nihonto Koza you mentioned but chose not to mention this to see how other folks judge the merit of this tanto. And yes, it would be very difficult next to no chance of recieving Juyo based on its condition.

I am sure several knowledgable collectors have not pitted in because they knew the history of this blade. One of the first lessons in kantei is the shape, this blade is not normally of the sugata one would associate with the Kiyomaro school. If the blade was unsigned and you handled it up close would you think it was a Kiyomaro based on its shape? Of course without emphasising this how can one seriously appreciate this as a representative piece by Kiyomaro and defend the value of this piece without question? If somebody consider the blade was "underwelming" based on its first impression perhaps they had a point considering its hefty price tag!

 

Without risking offense to my knowledgable friends I do feel that even in such low res images one can come to a satisfactory conclusion that this once fine shaped tanto, but like a supermodel that is suffering from anerexia, had suffered extensively to a point that it is now a shadow of its former self. Conversly I have no problem it is a valueble piece because we are certain it is a Kiyomaro.

 

I have enclosed an attachment from the page of Afu's Koza curtesy of Mr Yapp.

 

 

Group......

 

Has anyone commented on the recent history of this sword? When i saw the post i thought i recognized the sword. I remember seeing it in the Koza (Shinshinto vol. page 317 of the translation by AFU). I did not see anyone mention this so i will add the reference. The article calls the blade a katana but from the pictures of the tang it looks like a taanto and in it seems a match to the pictures of the sword for sale.

 

The artice says this blade was badly damaged by rust, there are before and after pictures of the tang, it was polished and the size greatly reduced, the information mentions the importance of the experiment as it shows how well made Kiyomaro's swords are (as they can survive after such restoation).

 

So if i am correct and this is the same sword then my opinon is--- that it will not make Juyo (at present), as it has been greatly changed from its original shape (and is Shinshinto)-- i doubt anyone knowing this would submit it, but on the potentialy positive price side it is a published sword with interesting recent history.

[Mark]

W. Y. Chan,

 

I felt the same as you, that is one reason i did not jump in at the begining, i thought it would have been brought up sooner. With the way the post was going (somewhat negativly) i figured i might as well be the one to mention the reference and maybe that would allow some more constructive comments. I agree, any Kiyomaru is rare and therefore commands a high price.

 

I have a O-Tanto by a smith in the Kiyomaro school, it has the typical "masculine shape". It was displayed at the MN sword show, Miyano sensei commented on it during his discussion, he held it up and noted to the audience that even without the mei the shape idenified it as a Kiyomaro school peice.

[Brian]

Thank you all for turning this very educational. Interesting to see this blade turn up now all these years later for sale. I will have to study the Kiyomaru school shape closer. Surprised its history has not been mentioned, but as you all said, it is still a Kiyomaru. I wonder what caused the degradation that led to such an extensive restoration? Was this a sleeper that turned up in Japan unknown, or did it just suffer neglect. Hmm.

So are we 100%sure this is the same blade? I am convinced, but would be good to know this for 100% certain. As a published blade, I guess a buyer would like to know its history. Perhaps this is why it is not mentioned on the Japanese sales site? Maybe its history is too well known there?

Lots of questions, and some great info. I think Darcy called odd shape without even knowing its history. Good observation and a good insight into what we are studying towards

In this tanto, I don't particularly like the sugata and the nakago in particular seems in poor proportion

 

Regards,

Brian

[Mark]

Brian

 

In the excerpt from the Koza that Mr Chan posted it says the owner buried it to avoid being confiscated after WWII and that caused the damage

[Brian]

Oops..apologies. I should either get glasses or stop trying to read while my (work) boss is in the room :D

Thanks for the clarification.

 

Brian

[w.y.chan]

I would not be surprise restoration work would not have taken place if the orginal condition werent documented because by having the original profile of the shape as a Kiyomaro school recorded it was "safe" to have the alteration done and genuinity is guaranteed. It would be interesting if the NBTHK would gave it paper if this tanto was presented with all the alterations but without its historical background.

[Guest Simon Rowson]

If this is what a few years underground can do to a blade, the guy who's got the Honjo Masamune buried in America had better dig it up fast!

 

(Sorry Brian......couldn't resist)

[Keith Larman]

Brian

 

In the excerpt from the Koza that Mr Chan posted it says the owner buried it to avoid being confiscated after WWII and that caused the damage

 

That listing also says it was a katana... Unless I'm misreading the section.

[Mark]

Group......

 

The article calls the blade a katana but from the pictures of the tang it looks like a taanto and in it seems a match to the pictures of the sword for sale.

 

.

 

I mentioned this in my previous post

[w.y.chan]

Brian

That listing also says it was a katana... Unless I'm misreading the section.

 

I believe that is an error in translation.

[Bob M.]

Having watched the developing discussions on this thread , and in particular the recent very interesting historical info. on this blade, a few thoughts come to mind.....

There is obviously a strong basis for the 'cult status ' of Kiyomaro blades and this is found in the quality of the workmanship. Have the other aspects of his life - small output/drink problems/suicide etc. - actually altered perceptions to the extent that his work is no longer dispassionately

viewed ? ( No lack of passion on the board either .)

With many old blades we 'buy into' a sense of history . The Kiyomaro output is not generally old enough to have acquired its own history - it would appear that their makers life story has substituted - truely an art ( artists ) sword !

[w.y.chan]

Bob,

I gree with you there is a certain aura in status surrounding Kiyomaro were his life story as an artist mark him out as someone of historical important in the art field, ie Van Gogh. Everyone like a story. However unlike impressionists and modern painters his swordmaking need to be judged to a high standard to merit the kind of accolade that scholars consider as fine art.

 

I can think of one or two smiths since that is skilled and gained notoriety or avant guarde status in the sword world.

 

Please dont call me WY, I am Wah.

[Keith Larman]

Bob,

I gree with you there is a certain aura in status surrounding Kiyomaro were his life story as an artist mark him out as someone of historical important in the art field, ie Van Gogh. Everyone like a story. However unlike impressionists and modern painters his swordmaking need to be judged to a high standard to merit the kind of accolade that scholars consider as fine art.

 

From what I can tell many of those who have seen his work in person and really know their stuff are willing to pay top dollar for those pieces.

 

I think there are two themes in this thread.

 

One is valuation of art and that is always a complex issue.

 

The second is the quality of the work of Kiyomaro.

 

The first issue we can all talk about because it is a general thing.

 

The second is something that unless we've had personal experience with good examples of his work ultimately it becomes little more than idle chatter. To use myself as an example, I really can't comment all that much on Kiyomaro's work because I don't have personal experience with it. I've seen lots of photos. And from what I've seen I'm seriously impressed. But beyond that all I'm really left with repeating what others say. And while an argument from authority doesn't give an absolutely correct deductive answer to a question, authorities with access, knowledge and experience with the object of discussion are certainly better situated to have a more useful opinion... No, I'm not going to say that *I* feel that Kiyomaro's work was in the top 10 historically. That is patently silly because I've not sat at a table and handled all that work. I've seen some *really* nice stuff in person. I've been able to handle many nice swords. But nothing like what some have been able to see sitting the NBTHK in Japan with Tanobe sensei. Or at some of the top level shops in Japan.

 

I think Guido's original point about having all those who have actually handled Kiyomaro's work raise their hand is a very important point here.

 

Many who have had extensive experience with his work and the other masters have little problem putting him in the top levels.

 

So that combined with the very colorful history make for a potent combination.

 

Would Muramasa stand on his own merits if it weren't for the entire Tokugawa thing?

 

Kiyomaro seems to generate admiration that goes well beyond the "story".

 

Sigh. I need to get to Japan this fall for the Dai Token Ichi. Now Kiyomaro has jumped to the top 5 of my "must see in person" list.