Signature identification and age

[swordeval]

Hi

 

New member so hello to all. Confirm that this relates to a personal possession and comments are not being requested for commercial purposes.

 

We know something of Japanese art and culture but are entirely new to Nihonto. We have researched considerably but my daughter has just acquired her first ever sword. We are aware of the limitations of our knowledge in this domain so would like some help and guidance.

 

The sword is obviously in degraded condition and at least some restoration is going to be required. We have started to collect initial restoration facts including "dos" and "never dos" - though opinions and advice conflict in many areas. Any comments on that subject welcome.

 

Here's what we have: L. 26ins/66.5cms. Saya is silver-flecked with some minor chips. Tsuba is heavily oxidized. Kashira and Fuchi both also very badly corroded the fuchi has almost gone in fact. The Menuki I think are in coral.

 

The blade is oxidized in parts but relatively surface level only. Some minor scratching. The Seppa are missing.

The tang is heavily pitted and signed with what looks like two characters but these are badly worn and difficult to photograph in standard light. I may need to find some specialist lighting to highlight them.

 

Be very grateful to know if anyone can read the signature (I could provide larger high-def photos if required) and give their opinion on the period. Keep in mind you're talking to novices!

 

Nice meeting you all and thanks in advance. Paul B.

 

[swordeval]

Sorry, just for clarity, I haven't researched the characters - not because I'm lazy but because I'm struggling to make them out even under a glass and using other techniques. I'm hoping someone with more experience might be able to interpret them so I can perform some more detailed checking. Tks.

[takakage]

Kanefusa is written. Many smiths with this name in the koto period.

[mdiddy]

Paul,

 

Welcome to the forum. The sword is signed 'Kanefusa'. Kanefusa was a line of swordsmiths working in Mino province, most notably in the 1500s. Your sword could be from this time period but a little more research would be needed to verify the workmanship of the blade (i.e. hada, hamon, etc) and also the signature. The condition is rough and most likely given the costs of restoration, it might not be financially sensible to have the blade restored. As well, the kissaki (tip) looks like it might have been knocked off and then reground to form a new one. If this is the case, the blade is certainly not worth restoring. I highly recommend researching the time and costs of restoration before doing so.

 

The mounts are original. Worth noting is the tsuka-ito (wrap on the handle) which is commonly related to the Satsuma Rebellion, ca. 1877.

 

I hope that helps.

 

Matt

[mdiddy]

Here is a little more info on Kanefusa: viewtopic.php?f=1&t=2511

[Brian]

These are definitely the type of mounts commonly refered to as "Satsuma Rebellion" mounts, where most anything was put into service. This explains things like rough fittings and utilitarian menuki etc. The blade appears to pre-date this even though, so maybe an earlier blade pressed into service.

It's at least genuine and of age. I suggest some oiling and maybe some uchiko cleaning to see what comes up. Certainly a lot better than the first Chinese fake many purchase.

 

Brian

[swordeval]

Thanks to everyone for your exceptionally helpful advice and guidance.

 

My daughter purchased this as a "19th century Katana" for a very modest price in order to gain experience. It was against my advice - showing again just what I know!

 

We do know something of the provenance in that it was part of a deceased person's estate who had brought it back with them from Japan in 1946 (approx) and which had sat in a damp attic in Cherbourg since then.

 

Upon removing the mounts, my initial gut feeling was that the blade was considerably older than the mounts. I know very little through real experience of Nihonto but I do know a little more about metal aging and the tang seemed to show all the characteristics of a genuine and significantly older age.

 

The mounts were also clearly of utilitarian quality and I suspected they may be later replacements.

 

I am very grateful to you all for your input. It will help us do further research.

 

To answer one or two of your questions:

 

1. I have looked at the Kissaki fairly closely under glass and I can't see any obvious signs of regrinding. However, It is exceptionally dirty and some light cleaning might be required to examine it closely.

2. One the gentle cleaning has been done, I'll post a revised photograph of the entire length and hamon etc. At the moment it's so dirty that it's difficult to see anything clearly;

3. Appreciate your tips on finances etc. Thanks. We will research carefully.

 

Some new photos will follow in due course.

 

best wishes. Paul

[Dr Fox]

Paul

 

Welcome to you and your daughter, it comes across to me that you have done more than a little homework. You use the correct Japanese terminology for the parts of the sword. This to me and others starting out, was always the hardest skill to master, good on you.

 

My daughter very rarely listens to me, but in this case, I hope this is an occasion, that brings you into a family of appreciators of a fab hobby.

 

From me and others, most welcome.

[Grey Doffin]

Hi Paul,

Before you try any light cleaning be sure to check here to find out if what you plan to do will help or damage the blade. Well meant attempts by amateurs at fixing Japanese swords often end up badly.

Grey

[swordeval]

Thanks again for those additional tips. Yes, my children rarely listen to me but I have to say, they're more often right than I am!

 

I do have expertise in antique horology and silver but none in this area - or very very little. My teenage daughter knows more than I do about Japanese culture and art forms.

 

In terms of restoration, we need to define a strategy and won't take risks. My immediate desire is to stabilise the oxidation of the tsuba, kashira and fuchi even though they're mundane. I suspect the fuchi is just about beyond saving though so I will probably just leave it alone though if it does go completely it will need replacing.

 

I have read a large amount on that subject over the past few days and the consensus is to gently remove surface rust with a soft bone or piece of ivory then do nothing else. Does that conform to best practice?

 

In the case of the blade, Brian and many other authors seem to suggest some very gentle Uchiko cleaning which I understand in principle (based on reading) but have never done. I had considered a small test patch of perhaps a centimetre. I would not use abrasives or chemicals etc.

 

Part of me inclines towards leaving the blade as is but I know oxidation is progressive and in addition, the blade is so dirty that it makes it difficult to fully examine it. So, I think a 'do nothing' route probably isn't an option.

 

I assume the Seppa should be replaced with roughly contemporary Edo or early Meiji mounts in due course? I believe they can be found.

 

I have done little yet to research the cleaning of the Saya- which is also dirty and it can't just be described as patina. It's plain muck from where this has sat for perhaps 70 years or so in that attic.

 

I am really appreciate of all thoughts and advice and we will be VERY cautious about doing anything before getting expert opinion.

 

Best wishes. Paul B.

[swordeval]

Hi

 

Over the past couple of weeks I have been working to try and save/stabilise the iron mounts.

 

However, I have also given a traditional light oil clean also to the possible Kanefusa blade. I attach some additional photos here.

 

As you'll see, the corrosion is moderately severe (to my eye).

 

I have been doing a lot of reading and I suppose like many new to the area, I'm suffering slightly from information overload!

 

My main question relates to options on the blade. I accept the financial reality that a professional restoration isn't worthwhile but clearly a 'do nothing' approach will simply mean the slow but steady deterioration of the steel over time - which surely can't be acceptable.

 

This is a classic restoration dilemma. In other fields I'd be able to make an informed decision but knowing very little of Nihonto, I'd appreciate any thoughts and advice.

 

Rgds. Paul B.

[swordeval]

Hi

I received a comment to the effect that my new photos weren't viewable.

 

Not sure what happened but they seem Ok now.

 

So, my question remains, what would people advise to at least stabilise the blade and preferably to remove the oxidation?

 

If this blade is ancient, it would seem to be a pity to allow its on-going deterioration because it isn't cost-effective to fully and professionally restore it.

 

Any thoughts gratefully appreciated. Rgds. Paul B.

[Brian]

I had fixed the broken pics.

 

Brian

[raven2]

Hi Paul,

 

You are right about continuing to let the sword deteriorate but I really don't think it is as big a problem as you think. It really isn't worth restoring but that doesn't mean you can't prevent the deterioration. Keep it oiled to prevent the rust from continuing any more damage. A light coating is enough.

[swordeval]

Hi Fred

 

Thanks for your comment.

 

I'm not really too worried about the aesthetics here. I'm more concerned about cumulative damage. To explain a bit further..

 

We are entirely new to Nihonto but I do have a lot of experience of steel in the area of ancient (18th and early 19th century) horology. Of course the scale is minute compared to a blade but you just can't do a light oil-based clean on it when corroded. You're just making it look slightly better and the rust continues to damage the steel - eventually fatally. You really have to clean it off forcefully then engage in preservation (or machine another part).

 

What I've been researching but so far without success, is something that scientifically discusses the evaluation and trade-off between ignoring (or lightly cleaning) oxidation on a blade of this sort versus the huge risks that arise when amateurs start to try and undertake a re-polish. Both are undesirable but which is worse? That's the question I can't answer with Nihonto based on my own experience.

 

I guess my questions are:

 

a. if given a gentle oil clean, does any corrosion become stabilised or does it remain progressive?

b) if it remains progressive, is it still best practice to more or less ignore it?

 

I guess my only fear is that some time in the future, somebody is going to describe me as an idiot for not doing 'xyz' with the corrosion short of a full professional restore (not economically viable).

 

We are perfectly happy though to leave well alone if that is the lesser of two evils. Looking for opinions really.

 

Cheers. Paul B.

[ROKUJURO]

Paul,

 

there is no way other than to show the blade to an expert! That is not the next knife shop around the corner who might want to sharpen this very long knife, but someone who has experience in this special field. NBM provides a lot of useful addresses.

 

The other side is what you could do yourself. Oil has the capacity to keep oxygen away from a metallic surface IF

 

a) the layer is thick enough and

 

b) the oil is adhesive enough to stay in place.

 

Not every oil can provide this, and you should not put an oiled blade back in the scabbard as dust and particles will stick on the blade's surface. In the end, this can cause more damage by scratching and 'grinding' the blade.

 

As far as I can see from the photos, the rust damage does not seem to go very deep, so all measures need not be decided today or this week. But in the long range somebody should polish a 'window' and see what you have. In the meantime a little bit of machine oil would do any harm, but will also not work wonders.

 

Remove the HABAKI, get rid of the red rust on the NAKAGO (use you wife's toothbrush and a dry cotton rag), clean well also inside the HABAKI, and put on a little bit of oil.

[swordeval]

Thanks Jean.

 

That makes excellent sense. I'll follow your advice and get it looked at professionally in due course.

 

Cheers. Paul