Re-Listed Tsuba

[kissakai]

Hi

 

I put four tsuba on the NMB 5 days ago. John kindly translated the Soten tsuba but since then no other help was forthcoming.

I was keen and encouraged to put these museum pieces for other member to enjoy as you never know if a real gem will appear

I’m sorry if this sounds to abrupt but without some expert help it is a waste of time to add any more tsuba

I know some members may take exception to my comment. So I’ll apologise before posting

It may be against the rules to relist the same items and the same questions but in this rare case I felt it was the only way to make this point and I accept it is quite within the NMB right to remove this thread

 

These were some tsuba I was about to trickle feed (over a few months) onto the NMB with the details I have managed to transcribe:

 

LH Yoshinobu 良宣 with kao. RH ***

Joi - RH side * kiyo/naga 氷 moto/gen 充 *. LH side Mune/sō 宗 *

Echizen 越前 ju 住 Myochin 明弥 Yoshihisa 女久saku 作

Sanada 定* Tembō 天法

LH side Mitsunobu 光延. RH side *

** Tsunemasa 典 * + kao

Tōu Yasuchika 宴 *

Akao 赤尾 Jinzaēmon *** - Kado* 門* saku 作

Saōtome Iyehisa

Shô/Masa 昌 Nari/Nori/Tada 規

Nakai Zensuke Tomotsune 任積 Nakai.

 

Bearing in mind what I’ve said above I’m unsure whether to post them or not

 

 

1) 77 x 71 x 4.1mm 19C

Tanaka Iyetsugu 家次 * Toshimasa (Nagamasa)

 

 

 

2) 69 x 63 x 6.5mm 1800 Cira Chōshū

Nakai Nakai Tomotsugu 友次 of Chōshū 長州

 

 

 

3) 84 x 80 x 4.3mm 16C - 18C

Myochin LH side Mitsunobu 光延. RH side *

 

 

 

Grev UK

[Toryu2020]

GREV -

 

Love that Mitsunobu - ignore that static and keep posting, my friend.

-t

[Jean]

Grev, what are you expecting? What are your questions?

 

Am I right in my translation?

Can someone provide me info on school/maker?

[kissakai]

Hi Jean

Although I've stated this before I think it is worth restating

The museum has around 600 tsuba that have not been on public display since 1915

In the catalogue that accompanied the exhibition there is quite a bit that is wrong and it is hard to find out were the attribution came from

I think someone who had limited knowledge used there 'expertise' along with the collectors description as the catalogue description

Then another person updated the museums description which is also prone to errors

I've spoken to Mr Robert Haynes about this collection and he is aware of these tsuba and one is used in one his books

A few days ago I have written to Mr Haynes to ask if has any more information about this collection

I photographed the tsuba and with so much help from the NMB have corrected the mei, date and the tsuba school where known

This then gives the museum a much more accurate description for there records

Once this was exercise was completed I would explore with the museum the feasibility of publishing a book which I think is possible or at the very least have all the images on the museum website, currently they only have about a dozen tsuba on their website

 

To sum up I need as much information as possible for each tsuba

I hope this adequately answers your question

 

I'm glad I haven't annoyed anyone so far

Grev UK

[cabowen]

This is a lot of work. It might be best for someone to be hired as a consultant to thoroughly research and update the collection. If you are capable of doing this yourself, and are willing to donate all of your time and expertise, that is admirable. No doubt most here do not mind giving some help here and there but a project of this size is perhaps asking a bit much....

[kissakai]

Hi Chris

Always was a big task. I started his quest March 2013 so a years work to date and I expect this to take another year

Initially there were 157 tsuba with mei

Over the months either via the NMB or with the some volunteers (the volunteers were helping via PM's)

132 mei have been correctly identified and some of these as gimei

This leaves 25 mei that are still in question which is not too many especially as I only put only put a few tsuba on the NMB per month

One post I did on the 15th July 'Tsuba help' solicited 1123 views with 15 replies so I believe this initial aim of translating the mei is achievable

Schools and dates is something I need to really think hard about as it is often stated it is only an opinion

On an earlier post I asked about some Tosho tsuba that I was sure were wrong and this was confirmed so there is some headway that can be made in this area

BTY. I retire in 2015 so I do have the time and enthusiasm but not the hands on experience (yet :lol: )

 

 

With thanks

[Brian]

Grev,

I (and most people) think you are doing a wonderful job. We enjoy the posts and looking at the pics. In most cases, translations are the easy part. I think most of them have been done? That leaves further info, which in most cases people will be reluctant to go on record with. We really aren't qualified to call gimei from online pics (or even in hand in most cases) and most of the additional info is in the translations. For example...Myochin Mitsunonbu. Myochin school....made by Mitsunobu. Not much can be added to that. Enjoy the pics..but saying much more would be guessing at info that no-one wants published if they are unsure.

So please don't mistake silent appreciation for lack of interest. Ask specific questions and I am sure people will do their best to answer.

 

Brian

[rkg]

+1 on this.

 

Evaluating and documenting a collection of this size is a LOT of work. Kudos to you for taking on this task for them (and I think it would be really cool to get the opportunity to image some of the pieces in this collection), but...

 

While the members of this board have always been extremely generous (IMHO) in helping out people with identification of things, etc., it seems to me having to go through a large collection kantei-ing pieces is kind of over the top.

 

If this work is really of value to the museum, I'd posit that they should look into shaking loose a few bucks to pay for appropriate consulting services/hire somebody to do the work. They don't like to admit to it/prefer to keep that aura of being fine charitable repositories of the past, but the sad truth is that museums are BUSINESSES - and if its for an exhibit they're receiving revenue from, well, you know... For example, while Mr. Haynes has always been generous with his time for students, he earned his living consulting on things like this - and now he's supposed to help out for free? Again, if he chooses to, kudos to him, but...

 

The late Toren Smith had some amazing observations on the museum business - the trouble is that I don't recall if where these threads were now (the predecessor to the current NMB, one of Rich Turner's old websites or what) - Maybe somebody not suffering from CRS like me could dig 'em up and repost them.

 

My apologies if I sound like an a** on this, but working for free when you probably shouldn't is one of my hot buttons - I'm frequently asked about imaging items and while I'm glad to help out really interested people/talented individuals I often later start getting asked for what amounts to free consulting services that somebody really should be paying my day rate to obtain...

 

I'm sure I've posted this before, but this interview with Harlan Ellison is really germane as both warner brothers and museums are really in the same business (entertainment):

 

 

Back to work,

 

Best,

rkg

(Richard George)

 

 

This is a lot of work. It might be best for someone to be hired as a consultant to thoroughly research and update the collection. If you are capable of doing this yourself, and are willing to donate all of your time and expertise, that is admirable. No doubt most here do not mind giving some help here and there but a project of this size is perhaps asking a bit much....

[John A Stuart]

Grev, I have been trying to translate the missing kanji as best I can, but, if I am not confident to a fairly high degree would rather not pass on bad info and bugger up your project. I agree, keep them coming, 'any help is better than none and dozens of heads are better than one'. Jeez, the hits just keep coming. John

[Curran]

I'm not 100% sure what Grev was asking in the opening.

I certainly miss a lot on NMB and don't remember seeing these tsuba before.

 

The Tanaka "Iyetsugu" is correct, though that seems a rare name or alternate name for somebody in the school. Work is good.

 

The Choshu tsuba is Tomo___(?)____

To guess Tomotsugu isn't a bad guess, since this design was common to a small subset of people in the school. I had an one unsigned once. (Photo attached) and see them from time to time.

 

The third one looks correct, though should double check or get someone more fluent to confirm the 'Nobu' character.

[k morita]

Hi Kissakai , :D

[Jean]

Thanks Grev for the clarification, I now understand the task you are undergoing, congrats and good luck

[Curran]

Thank you again Morita-san.

 

I failed to read that at "Cho-han". I only saw a "Choshu" tsuba.

It is still a "Choshu" tsuba, but I lost gaijin points for that.

[kissakai]

Thanks to you all for your help and I’d like to reply to Richard.

Loved the link to the interview

I think that posting these tsuba helps everyone, I get to move the project forward and members have the chance to learn for other NMB’s input. I’m also hoping that some (unbeknown to me) will be real treasures

When I spoke to Mr Haynes his last words were that if I needed any help then I just had to ask so I took the opportunity!

I agree that the museum is getting something for nothing but if they were displayed there would be no entry charge so any money is only made in the gift shop. In this present economical environment they would stop in storage for another 100 years and that is something I feel shouldn’t be allowed to happen.

While in there storage area I have seen a few hundred fuchi, kashira and menuki along with a limited number of swords in fine koshirae and armour. None of this is on their website or any publication that I know of so it’s almost like it doesn’t exist!

I have personally benefited due to the amount I’ve learned since starting this quest, and knowing how hard this is I would still jump at chance of doing it again

 

 

Grev UK

[Jean]

Grev,

 

Any possibilities to burglarize the museum caves/reserves? :D

[Tanto54]

Sorry, off topic, but this is something that has always bothered me: while there are a few museums that treat nihonoto and kodogu with care and respect and provide the great service of researching and educating the public about them, there are a great many more museums (as many of you know) that have vast collections rotting away in storage with no intention of ever displaying or conserving them (I understand that in some of the great museums, 97% or more of their collections will never be displayed). Of course, we have a couple of notable exceptions of individuals on the NMB who dedicated their professional lives to promoting and caring for these items in museums, but they are the very rare exception. I’ve often wondered how a collector who apparently loved these pieces could donate them to the “dead-end” dust bin of a museum collection. These items were meant to be handled, viewed up close and cared for. Getting permission to see or help conserve (even for free) these neglected collections is often almost impossible because the museum will not even want to incur the cost of a supervisor (I’ve had this experience all over the US and Europe). When looking into the circumstances of the donations, it often appears that the donors have been blinded by ego and a false sense of immortality (a placard on the wall saying the “John Smith Collection of Japanese Swords...”) and deluded themselves into believing that their treasures would actually be cared for and displayed. When it comes your time, please consider passing your treasures to another collector who will love and care for them, or if you just have to donate, please consider setting up a trust to pay for the preservation of the items and get a contract with the museum covering care and minimum display requirements.

[Brian]

Thank you Morita san!

 

Brian