Wak Rescue

[tokashikibob]

Gents,

A unloved wakizashi was on the auction table the last weekend, no action on it so I picked it up for $200. Very nice hamon with kisses to the shinogi. Is that unusual?

 

Wiping it down revealed polisher marks on the mune and under the habaki. Habaki is think silver over copper and seppa's gold over copper, kashira and fuchi nicely detailed and solid silver. I'm guessing the menuki's were pretty nice since somebody cut them out, same looks salvageable but quite old.

 

Since I am ignorant, any ideas on the type of Tsuba?

 

Blade has no kizu except one ding in the Ha-saki. Masame hada.

One day I'd like to see this one polished and kashira restored.

Best regards,

Bob

http://www.okinawarelics.com

[cabowen]

Nice score for $200! Most likely shinto...

[Jean]

Very nice score!!!! In France I have seen antiques dealers selling this kind of sword for 700$...

[Stephen]

prime candidate for restoration, would love to see that in polish, for what you have in it, well worth it IMHO

[Gunome]

Hello,

 

Nice cheap find.

Tsuba is a mokkogata shape. Yamashiro tempo style

[Darcy]

You would seem to have a good chance at a koto something-or-other.

 

When you look at schools that have flamboyant hamon going to the shinogi you embrace a lot of very interesting stuff in the list of possibilities. Worst case you have something like a Shimada. Really depends on how much activity goes down to the ha.

[Teimei]

A very wide hamon is a typical feature of late shinto period blades.

 

200$? Lucky shot!

[Jean]

Can be any period, you find very wide hamon in Kamakura, Nambokucho and Muromachi.

[cabowen]

Curious why anyone would lead with koto on this blade?

[Jean]

I was giving an example Chris, wide hamon can be found in all periods. Shinsa will give a written opinion of the school/smith.

[cabowen]

I agree Jean, but it is much much more common in later blades. That, along with the shape, would put the odds in favor of Shinto in my opinion...

[Darcy]

Shape on a cut down wak doesn't tell you a whole lot. Much like sori, people will read a book and tell you to be a koto Kamakura piece needs such and such sori and so and so dimensions and this and that kissaki then you look at the Juyo zufu and see all kinds of contradictions to what the books say.

 

The books basically give a very thousand foot view of the average or somewhat idealized example.

 

Go Yoshihiro has Ichimai boshi and middle Kamakura blades have Ikubi kissaki and Yamato blades have masame and high shinogi. Again, have a look through the Juyo zufu and find out that 90% of examples do not match what the books say.

 

So basically an item cut down to a wak length is more likely to be koto (welcome to disagree and not going to argue angels on a head of a pin etc.).

 

Is it a guarantee I am making? Surely not.

 

Flamboyant hamon and cut down to wak length is exactly what I said, you would seem to have a good chance at a koto something or other. Note "seem" and "good chance".

 

While "wide hamon" may be more present on late Shinto period blades, suriage is more present on older blades by far. So if you want to run the statistics you have a higher chance of falling into the bucket old/cut-down/wide-hamon than new/cut-down/wide-hamon.

 

Overall my own opinion was stated very vaguely and I will flip that particular coin and be pretty sure it's not going to turn up Shinshinto, and I will lean towards it coming out Koto vs. Shinto.

 

So go my opinions. Welcome to disagree and show me countless examples of Shinto blades cut down to wak length because of the endless battles they were in and them being broken, chipped, smashed, busted in half etc. and I will be happy to pick up on the lesson.

 

What I want to see is what I said above, how much activity goes down to the ha and that will illustrate the story much better, as well as quality of the jihada and everything else that we can't see right now.

 

Overall, polish it, submit it, and let's see how it turns out. As long as it is in this condition it's pure speculation and any guess is just that.

[cabowen]

I have never found suriage or o-suriage to be, in and of itself, an accurate indicator of a blade's age. I put much more emphasis on the shape (there is something to be learned by looking at the shape of suriage/o-suriage blades as there is more to it than just the sori), hada, and the hamon, and then go where they point. There are always exceptions...In this case, the shape, the hada, and the hamon (wide with a fairly uniform/regular pattern) tend to point to Shinto, in my opinion, so regardless of the suriage, I think that Shinto is the safer bet. The nakago, as I have been taught, confirms what one sees in the blade. If the shape was more typical of koto, with a hamon that was more typical of koto, then the suriage would tend to confirm koto as a safer bet. With regards to suriage/osuriage, from what I have seen, koto blades that are o-suriage for the most part, have had this performed early as opposed to later. In other words, it is less common to see an old koto blade that was greatly shortened in the last 100-150 years. The work done on this sword, judging by the freshness of the work, was not done that long ago.

 

Not looking for an argument here, just want to clarify the thought process. Indeed, we are speculating and better photos would be a big help.

[Brian]

Both valid points and I think it's important to read both views. No arguing, just both sides of the story that need to be considered.

Appreciate you both explaining and giving us info to contemplate and use for further research. Would love to see this one restored and shinsa'd.

Doesn't really matter if it turns out to be a Koto or a Shinto as long as it has good workmanship.

Darcy taught me long ago when I bought my favorite wakizashi from him that age isn't everything. In most cases, an early Shinto is better than a late (often mass produced) Koto. It's all about the sword, and less about the era.

 

Brian

[mdiddy]

The hamon in one picture looks similar to Bizen style koshi-no-hiraita. There look to be kani-no-hasami 'crab claws' at the top of the midare.

 

If we could see a picture of the boshi and kaeri, that might tell a little more about the age.

[cabowen]

I noticed those as well and thought later Sukesada....

[tokashikibob]

The hamon in one picture looks similar to Bizen style koshi-no-hiraita. There look to be kani-no-hasami 'crab claws' at the top of the midare.

 

If we could see a picture of the boshi and kaeri, that might tell a little more about the age.

Gentlemen,

Thank you all very much for all the expert information. I tried to take a few more pictures but they are not worth posting. Looking at the hamon in detail after reading thru the messages, there are a few more crab claws formations on the blade in addition to the ones pointed out before that are quite "crabby". I'll look thru the forum for polisher information and make it a priority to get this task started on the wak rescue.

 

Best Regards,

Bob

[tokashikibob]

Gents,

In regards to the wak rescue, I have been conversing with Mr. Bowen and will use his services for next months Shinsa in Tampa. Hopefully, there will be some exciting news in the future!

Best Regards,

Bob

http://www.okinawarelics.com

[tokashikibob]

Update:

Wakizashi packed up and brought to USPS during a ice storm, tomorrow is supposed to be worse.... Hopefully it makes it down there by Tuesday as Mr. Bowen has a showing with it on Thursday. Maybe Chris will log in from Tampa and put a final word on it's history.

 

Gentlemen,

Packing up the Wakizashi for Tampa. I took a few more pictures of the wild hamon for your perusal. The kissaki has too much patina to see what may be there. Hopefully the sword merits some positive discussion there and is recommended for restoration.

 

Semper Fi,

Bob

http://www.okinawarelics.com

[Jacques D.]

Hi,

 

 

Go Yoshihiro has Ichimai boshi and middle Kamakura blades have Ikubi kissaki and Yamato blades have masame and high shinogi. Again, have a look through the Juyo zufu and find out that 90% of examples do not match what the books say.

 

I think there is a misunderstanding here. From what my teachers told to me, if you have a sword with an ikubi kissaki it would be mostly mid-kamakura, but you can see mid Kamakura sword with a chu-kissaki (said in text-books); ikubi kissaki is not obligatory on mid-Kamakura swords .

 

BTW Go Yoshihiro has Ichimonji boshi too.

[Jean]

BTW Go Yoshihiro has Ichimonji boshi too.

 

It is not a rule

 

http://www.nihonto.ca/go-yoshihiro/

[Jacques D.]

BTW Go Yoshihiro has Ichimonji boshi too.

 

It is not a rule

 

http://www.nihonto.ca/go-yoshihiro/

 

 

[Jean]

The Go Yoshihiro example belonging to Darcy has neither an ichimai nor an Ichimonji boshi (easily seen on the oshigata) so even if Nagayama Kokan mentions these boshi as being Go's ones, they are not the only ones. BTW, ichimai boshi is considered as Go mei/kantei point.

 

What means Darcy, is that everybody is making shortcurts in the books. Nihonto exhaustive encyclopaedia don't exist.

 

Nothing can replace seeing, holding, studying good blades, that's why attending shows or going to DTI is invaluable.

[runagmc]

Hi Jacques, what you are saying is the same as what Darcy says... (at least to some point)

 

-- Characteristics given in books (or by teachers) almost always have MANY, MANY exceptions - and often they can turn something that is even rare (Go = ichimai boshi), into something that is passed along as a "rule of kantei"... if you know what I mean...

 

I am with Jean... you have to look at as many swords as you can (in hand, pics, oshigata... whatever you can) to see the truth... and it is almost always much more complex than the books make it sound If it were only that easy :D ... but then again, it might get boring if they always "stuck to the rules"

 

Also, it's important (for me) to consider that much of what authors have stated as fact are just the stories that remain from a truth that is lost to time... if we only knew how many of the stories and attributions are completely wrong!

[cabowen]

Books are the starting, not finish point. LIke trying to understand a country and culture from the highway. You need to put the map away, get off the main roads, and travel the back roads...

[runagmc]

Nicely put...

 

Written material is essential to learning anything, but a picture is worth a thousand words... and experiencing something first-hand is worth even more...

 

...because you can usually believe your own two eyes :lol:

[Jean]

It is very interesting, a few questions and if you have the answers, you will understand a bit better the Nihonto world.

 

- when and why Gokaden system was created?

- How was teached Nihonto before?

[tokashikibob]

Gentlemen,

Tampa Kantei arrived today. I want to thank Mr. Chris Bowen for his superb services rendered! I hope to use his service again for next Shinsa.

Best Regards,

Bob

 

 

P.S. Fellas, you may be interested in checking out some interesting pics of Marine goofballs and their foreign lady friends from 1904-09 Asiatic scrapbook I'm working with.

http://www.okinawarelics.com/john_turner.html

[cabowen]

Den： Owari Mitsuyo

 

Kanbun period