Yoshisuke Tanto in Koshirae Review and Comments

[benatthelake]

http://www.toukenkomachi.com/index_en_t ... 70413.html

 

Looking hard at purchasing this Tanto and would like to open it up for review and comments. I'll have a review period myself of course.

Would appreciate all open and honest thoughts in regards to blade, Koshirae, Dealer reputation, relative value, etc.

 

I've been doing a lot of reading and looking for a Tanto for several months now with a limited budget. Already received some advice from a few board members on this one but always open to new thoughts. I personally appreciate the shape of this blade being Uno kubi-zukuri construction. Other aspects I also enjoy in the blade characteristics and Koshirae.

 

Of course I've been looking hard at the Tanto offered by Mariusz K and the 2 offered by Nick (all recently posted).

 

PMs or open comments appreciated.

 

Donation made to the NMB as this board has saved me $$$ already in addition to enhancing my knowledge and steering my collecting direction.

 

Thanks!

Ben M.

[Brian]

Ben,

I would go for Mariusz's offering personally, based on age, historical and resale value.

However I will say that I have watched this dealer's items for a while now, and come to the conclusion that their prices are very fair. One of the dealers that seems to have consistent good deals. That's about all I can offer right now.

 

Brian

[Jean]

My comment:

 

Fine blade even if kodai generation. Unokubizukuri is not so frequent and added value.

 

Koshirae: not original to the blade ..... But lovely

[benatthelake]

My comment:

 

Koshirae: not original to the blade ..... But lovely

 

Jean: I don't necessarily disagree with you that the Koshirae is not "the first," but how can you be sure? Clearly the Koshirae has some age. I believe Yoshisuke generations spanned Eisho(1504~) to the last 11th generation around Meiwa(1764). Do you believe the Koshirae is not that old? Would appreciate your further thoughts.

 

Personally, I think it is likely not the first Koshirae, unless this was the work of the last generation as it looks more like 1800s work to me. I did have some conversations with the dealer and confirmed the fit is correct and tight...only a seppa is a bit loose which could be the result of wood shrinkage...at least that is what I have read.

 

On a side note, I also enjoy the family Mon on the Tsuba and fittings....to me it adds an element of identity, ownership, and perhaps a bit of pride. Certainly I know the owner of "art" is not terribly important but I find many of the family Mons artistic and beautiful in their own way.

 

Best regards,

Ben M.

[Jean]

How many seppa?

[benatthelake]

Site shows 6 seppa.

 

Ben M.

[estcrh]

Would appreciate all open and honest thoughts in regards to blade, Koshirae, Dealer reputation, relative value, etc.

 

Ben, I can not comment much on the tanto other than to say that it looks like a good package to me personally, much better than many that are higher priced, but I have purchased several non sword related items from them and they communicated well, shipped fast and the items were as described. The yen is at a good exchange rate presently as well.

[Brian]

Site shows 6 seppa.

Bingo!

Think about it.

But not relevant much anyways, as you should always expect a sword to not be on it's first mounting. They are changed often as styles and tastes changed.

 

Brian

[Jean]

Ben,

 

I was wondering if it was six or three (showing both sides).

 

How many swords with original buke zukuri koshirae have you seen with 6 seppa?

 

They are here to adjust this koshirae to the blade. My friend Marc Broquin went to DTI 4 years ago with a fine tanto koshirae and came back with a very nice shin shinto tanto, the adjustment, which is perfect, was done in France. No added seppa.

 

You should not have 6 seppa on an original koshirae.

 

Nevertheless, I like the Koshirae and the blade :D

[benatthelake]

Correction...its 3. Front and back. Duh. Missing one which makes it loose.

 

Thanks for the comments.

 

Ben

[Jean]

That's what I thought. Anyway, 2 too many (with the one missing)

[benatthelake]

Yoshisuke Tanto is now in hand and I must say I enjoy it very much. I’ve been looking for Tantos with Koshirae for some time and the Uno kubi-zukuri style really stuck with me. Pictures are attached as the link is now disabled. It was a pleasure to do business with Touken Komachi. I took a bit of a risk with no papers on this blade but the price was very reasonable.

I believe Yoshisuke generations spanned Eisho(1504~) to the last 11th generation around Meiwa(1764)….according to Touken Komachi (Shiho Tsukada). Does anyone has any thoughts on which generation it might be or approximate period? I’m thinking later generation based on the look of the Nakago and mei not matching earlier generations. I will be submitting it to the next Shinsa board in the U.S.

 

Another papered Yoshisuke was discussed in this thread and shares some ….see link. http://www.militaria.co.za/nihontomessa ... 2e90a65586

 

I see many similar characteristics in Jigane …mokume mixe and Gunome-midare hamon. Although clearly the Mei is different. I have looked at a few different Yoshisuke and have not found any which match. Frankly most of them look more sloppy than the mei on my Tanto.

 

Any additional thoughts are appreciated and of course if anyone believes this to be Gemei, please speak up as honesty is preferred over politeness.

 

Ben M.

[cabowen]

I would think this is a much later generation as opposed to an earlier one. Hamon is too symmetric and organized for an earlier generation.

[Brian]

Interesting that the hamon exactly matches on each side. That isn't all that common (Muramasa style) and perhaps that will lead you towards an answer.

Yakidashi is a Shinto style perhaps. Mei looks well done and confident...I don't see any reason to suspect gimei. Just my own opinions of course.

 

Brian

[Soshin]

Hi Ben M.,

 

While I can't make any informed critique of the tanto itself I fully recommend buying from Mariusz K. He has purchased things from my collection of tosogu and vice versa and all transactions where smooth and professional. I hope you find this little bit of information helpful.

[Teimei]

Nice!

[Kam]

Nice tanto and koshirae, really like the hamon

 

In regards to originality of koshirae I would be inclined to say the saya looks to be a shortened possible wak saya. As for seppa I personally don't think it is a good indication either way as this is definitely an option in regards to the previously mentioned "wood shrinkage". When the tsuka timber shrinks the nakago has less distance to travel as well and even if it only lost 1% it doesn't gain so adjustment for an original tsuka over time is generally done with seppa. As for fitting a non original tsuka a number of factors need to be taken into account but often additional seppa are not needed.

 

Kam

[Stefan]

Shinshinto Jumyo in Point of view.

I studied three blades like this in the past years. All attributed to Jumyo

[Grey Doffin]

When wood shrinks it looses width, not length. If you start with a slab sliced straight across a tree, a full 360 degree circle, when water is lost it will occupy less than the full 360.

The loss of length is almost non existent. The difference in length between a new tsuka and the same 100 years later would be so tiny you'd need a very sensitive caliper to measure it. If extra seppa are necessary the tsuka is either made to fit a different blade or the mekugi-ana has been enlarged.

Grey

[benatthelake]

When wood shrinks it looses width, not length. If you start with a slab sliced straight across a tree, a full 360 degree circle, when water is lost it will occupy less than the full 360.

The loss of length is almost non existent. The difference in length between a new tsuka and the same 100 years later would be so tiny you'd need a very sensitive caliper to measure it. If extra seppa are necessary the tsuka is either made to fit a different blade or the mekugi-ana has been enlarged.

Grey

 

I tend to agree with Grey on this one.....not due to shrinkage. Further the mekugi-ana has clearly not been enlarged. Although I tend to believe it may have been made to fit a different blade as the Koshirae is not original (meaning not the first). However the Nakago fits in the tsuka very nicely...blade does not move at all. Hmmm... Perhaps the habaki is too short? I'll look at it closer and any additional thoughts are appreciated. Either way, the need for extra seppas (loose fit) was fully disclosed. I still find the Koshirae quite beautiful and complete and has some good age to it.

 

The blade style, characteristics, health, polish, mei quality, etc. are what originally drew me to the Tanto...of course relative to my small budget. A bit flashy for some people but I love it and look forward to a Shinsa review.

 

Appreciate all the comments and PMs. Stefan has got me wondering about the Jumyo influence...need to follow up with him on that as I'm not seeing it yet.

 

Ben M.

[Kam]

Hi grey

 

I think in an attempt at a quick reply (using an iPhone....pain in A to type on)

I may have been a bit vague in my point, which is indicators of original (ie made for) or non original koshirae.

While I tend to agree in general with the timber shrinkage rule(hence the 1%)

I have seen countless verifiable koshirae that over time have lost overall size including (while minimal) length. If speaking strictly timber, then compression is also a factor that cannot be ignored. While the mekugi Ana might still reasonably line up the obvious noticeable effect is a slightly loose tsuba ie the need for an extra seppa. There are many methods a craftsman might take that negates the need for such but the average collector is still inclined to just use seppa (or one of the many other "interesting" methods I have encountered. There are many other causes naturally for original koshirae to need extra seppa such as changing tsuba or damage to habaki.

As for fitting non original koshira if done properly by a knowledgable craftsman should be hard if not almost impossible to discern. As for the average collector and maybe some less than enthusiastic craftsman some obvious indicators while way too many to list.... might be more than 1 mekugi Ana or damaged/altered mekugi Ana, fuchi and saya not being flush with saya. Movement in tsuka or saya etc.

.......anyway just a long winded response to Jean's comment regarding the seppa.