perspective on proper etiquette.

[obiwanknabbe]

Hi everyone,

 

I wanted to take a moment to thank everyone on the board for the plethora of knowledge that you all have provided me. I have learned more in the past few months than in all the years prior.

 

That being said, I would also like to address something that I have seen on a few occasions which distresses me. We are all here to learn about and share our passion for Nihonto. Why? Because we see Nihonto as more than just a historical artifact, a weapon, or investment. We see Nihonto as the spiritual extension of a bygone era, the works of art that they are, and the historical perspective that they represent.

 

Those who are new to the study and appreciation of Nihonto are often not fully aware of the intricacies and finer points of sword collecting. Often they begin their collections with blades that are within their budget. To the experienced collector, such blades would be passed over en-lieu of pursuing a blade of higher quality. This does NOT give licence to make negative comments regarding the blade being presented for discussion from the beginner.

 

"10) Courtesy dictates that derogatory comments are not to be made, and kizu (defects, if any) are not pointed out unless the owner specifically asks the viewer to discuss the kizu in the blade." (http://www.montanairon.com/care.html).

 

I would like to think that this guideline would apply to the discussion of any blade, Nihonto, Gendaito, or Showato.

 

The new collector likely is very proud of his or her first blade. Their enthusiasm needs not be doused with, "just another showato, looks like junk, waste of money, or I wouldn't have bought that". Moms golden rule applies. "If you don't have anything nice to say......"

 

While I know that I am not a professional by any measure, I speak from the perspective of a life long Martial artists. Part of being honorable is being respectful. Let not a lofty position be a perch so high that one can no longer see those below.

 

Just my two cents and im wearing a helmet today (rocks may incoming:)

 

Kurt.K

[John A Stuart]

Yes, in a social gathering it would be rude. However, when trying to educate someone as to what desirable traits and undesirable ones to avoid you have to be forthcoming. Sometimes honesty may be brutal, but, it can be couched politely and any positive aspects treated to as well. As a teaching exercise you can't ignore pointing out what to avoid in the future and what to look for. John

[Brian]

Kurt,

Whilst I agree with some of what you say, I'm afraid this is a Nihonto forum, and as such...we subscribe to very strict guidelines on what is collectible and what isn't...passed down though hundreds of years. Personally, I feel that we do nobody any favours by having the "everyone is a winner" mentality. PC'ness is killing the world. A potential collector loses time and money if he continues to pursue items that ultimately have no value and will not enhance him as a collector.

Asking if a Showato should be polished a) Ignores the FAQ that I spent ages drawing up, and b) Ignores what this forum is about. They are not junk. They appeal to a huge militaria market, but spending huge money restoring them is laregly pointless, and we are not going to be doing anyone a service by encouraging them to do that.

Flaws are ugly, and lower value. I am not going to have people ignore flaws and avoid advice purely because it may offend someone who is falling into the old "Samurai sword" trap of sentimentality over logic.

I am not advocating rudeness. There are ways of addressing all of these politely, and we tackle rudeness where necessary. But we have said before that anyone who is contemplating serious collecting better have a thick skin. Those that did, are still here on the forum. They were beginners a year or 2 ago..now they give advice to novices.

How is anyone going to learn anything if everyone just panders to accumulations of junk? Tell someone their tsuba is "nice" when it is a $50 relic? Let someone think their sword is worth a fortune when it has a 2 inch fukure?

Sorry, but you can either spend years accumulating mediocre junk because no-one told you it was..or someone can shock you awake, and get you on the right path asap. I wish I knew how I would view flaws on already mediocre stuff when I started out. Took me years to start disliking 3/4 of my collection!

Now I have a bunch of mostly out of polish blades, but that have some promise. And I am clearing out the ones that are really just fodder.

 

Gotta be strong to collect.

 

Brian

[obiwanknabbe]

Gentlemen,

 

Please do not confuse the intent of my post. I am not saying that correction is unwarranted or unnecessary for beginners. I am saying that tact is often a better way to get the desired results. I, too, abhor PCness, but as a teacher, I know that if i tell a student in my classroom, "No, your wrong, do it my way", in most cases it wont elicit natural learning. It tends to breed contempt. To educate is to guide, not dictate.

 

If something appears to be fake, then say so. If someone is asking for advice, give it. Suggest they buy books (I listened and continue to do so). I think some people just need to readjust the polite meter. If you would not say it to someones face then I doubt it classifies as polite. Again, I am not here pointing fingers. Perhaps a discussion like this is enough just to remind everyone, myself included, that we need to all be conscientious about what we say and how we say it. A social break check, if you will.

 

The "worth it" argument is a highly semantic one at best. If we are speaking about investment grade Hizen blades, then yes, by all means weigh the cost of a polish against the intrinsic value of the blade and its future potential appreciation. For the newbie or weekend collector who may want his grandfathers Showato cleaned up, "Worth it" takes on a new definition. I'm just saying that not everyone is collecting as a means of retirement planning. A restoration on a 1984 Chevy pickup truck may not be "worth it", but if it holds special meaning to the owner, then whats the harm if done correctly and the end result brings them joy?

 

Instead of sitting in the backyard covered in leaves and grime, the truck is out on the road with a smiling driver behind the wheel, or likewise instead of collecting dust and rust in an attic, the wood dry-rotting away, the Showato is restored, remounted, revered, and some student is learning Iaido in a dojo somewhere with it; Or its on the mantel, where it becomes a family treasure, not a random relic found in a closet after someone dies. Omitted, both would likely fall victim to further neglect and the ravages of time. Lets be honest, if its already rusty, it tends to be ignored. What do we do with the things we own but don't love? They end up in the basement again. Like it or not, ascetics do play a part in how something is regarded by future generations. There are pros and cons here, its true.

 

I have one that I bought 20 years ago that was just a bare Showa blade. I had it polished and mounted. Then i learned Bikenjutsu with it. Whats that worth? I know that I will likely never financially recoup the cost of the work, but then again, i don't plan on selling it. My great Grandchildren may. Who knows?

 

300 years ago, no one thought a Brown Bess Musket would be collectible..... Oops right?

 

Just playing devils advocate.

 

Kurt.K

[Jean]

300 years ago, no one thought a Brown Bess Musket would be collectible..... Oops right?

 

Yes, but at that time, who cared?

 

Just to add, I have teached in different disciplines, if you tell a student he won't succeed doing it his way but will doing it your way, if you explain why, there won't be no rejection above all if you let him experience both ways.

[John A Stuart]

"...I know that if i tell a student in my classroom, "No, your wrong, do it my way", in most cases it wont elicit natural learning." Have things changed that much? That is exactly how I was taught, with a pointer or yardstick across the knuckles to emphasise the point. Why do we see so much misspelling, poor grammar and horrible maths on the social media? No discipline. Leading to....., this hobby, study, what have you, is a discipline. We can be polite, but, sometimes a crack on the knuckles is still effective. John

[BIG]

Hi Kurt,

 

Admin and Mods do their jobs.

 

Do you think it's Problem of the elder statesman?

[obiwanknabbe]

No John,

 

Things have not changed. I am speaking of the yuiju ichinin teaching styles which are employed in such things as the transmission of kokusai Jujutsu and other Martial traditions to a single successor. I have adapted these things for my classroom as each of my students is a single successor in their own right. For those who have trained under Tanemura Sensei, "With a soft hand I will teach you" will sound very familiar.

 

I think that says enough on the subject

 

Kurt.K

[runagmc]

Hi Kurt, for what it's worth, I think these are wise words;

 

if I tell a student in my classroom, "No, your wrong, do it my way", in most cases it wont elicit natural learning. It tends to breed contempt. To educate is to guide, not dictate.

 

We all begin/began at the bottom, and need/needed understanding and guidance from teachers (the people who have already gained the knowledge that we seek) to get anywhere. However, hardheadedness, or the lack of any effort to learn, should not be tolerated much by those teaching... and though it's nice when people TRY to remain polite, I think we have to leave that to the MODS discretion, for the most part.

 

Also, I try to keep in mind that there are MANY people on NMB for whom English is not their native language. This can lead to perceived rudeness, and other misunderstandings, IMO...

[eternal_newbie]

While the "do it my way and a rap across the knuckles if you stray" approach does often work, it's important to note that not everybody learns the same way. The job of a teacher is to figure out the best way to get a genuinely promising student to learn, not to dismiss anyone who won't learn and perform exactly the way they did (it might seem that way in a dojo, but those with a trained eye will notice subtle differences in how the best sensei teach individual students).

 

After all, in order for any art, science or profession to flourish requires that each generation of students be better than their teachers, otherwise the entire field will eventually stagnate or worse, degrade; and often, students who outshine their teachers are those who learn, work or think differently than their teachers did. Imagine if Masamune, Norishige, Sukehiro or Kiyomaro only produced works of exactly the same style and quality as their teachers, and their teachers' teachers...

 

There is, of course, a place for brutal honesty and a genuine need to weed out those who are clearly not interested in learning or are otherwise engaged in nefarious uses of our time and knowledge, but to dismiss anyone who won't, or can't, follow the One True Path of Nihonto Enlightenment exactly step-for-step is a road that leads to the extinction of our beloved hobby. That, I think, would be a great loss for our descendants and society as a whole.

 

Why do we see so much misspelling, poor grammar and horrible maths on the social media? No discipline.

I think the "internet factor" has to be taken into account here - I personally know people lecturing in English and mathematics who, when presented with a keyboard or smartphone and a Twitter account, turn into gibbering, hateful idiots who seem unable to perform basic arithmetic or produce a single meaningful sentence if their lives depended upon it.

[george trotter]

I am not advocating rudeness. There are ways of addressing all of these politely, and we tackle rudeness where necessary.

 

Brian

(on a lighter note)

Speaking of rudeness, remember the Inai Brothers?...where are they now? They were more fun than the Marx Brothers...I miss their catchy one-liners :lol:

Maybe they started up an advice forum for "advanced" collectors? Now that would be interesting...imagine the fun. A constant comedy of criticism.... aaah, the gloriy years of face slapping just might return (assuming selected "dumb" people are allowed to join to provide fodder for humiliation) :lol:

But even if they teach no-one, as was the case on NMB, their superior appreciation of themselves is always entertaining ...(you're not elite, I'm elite...no I'm more elite than you, ...oh really, well the Emperor washes my car...etc)...ah, please come back.

 

And this of course brings up the philosophical question of the desire (or not) of a supremacist teaching style here....if an audience is constantly told they are so dumb that they don't understand the show...why would they keep watching the show?...and this certainly shows why the Inai Brothers "left" the stage... people just stopped watching their show, and some even started to boo.

 

Brian, you can always do a survey and ask :

 

"In terms of explaining, encouraging and inspiring in you a desire to study nihonto"

1. do you prefer members who are helpful, encouraging and inspiring as teachers?

2. or not?

 

Hope this helps,

 

Edit to add:

errr...its gone awful quiet, was it something I said? :?

[Dave R]

I am going to stick my "two pennyworth" in here.

No1, saying online what you would not say to some ones face is the definition of a "Troll", and I am sure no one here wants to be one of them.

No 2, I see references to 300 years traditions of collecting.....but. The modern level of polish is generally held to be a product of the Meiji era when swords ceased to be used, and some say it only came in with the electric light. The original owners of these swords were by our standards dreadfully casual with them, to the point where they would drill a new Mekugi-ana just to fit a new Tsuka, or shorten them at the tang to fit with fashion.... The point being that collecting the way we do it now is a new phenomena, and so it is a bit rich to claim ancient tradition as a sanction for rudeness.

Quite frankly I have been quite put off by the attitude of some posters here and as a sword collector of 40 years standing I have never come across it at these levels anywhere else.

This is an excellent Forum and a resource I value very much, but I am reluctant to post my new pieces because of the barracking anything gets that does not match some peoples "exalted" standards.

( btw If you think I am being overly opinionated to the point of lacking manners...Hmmm a bit off putting isn't it.)

[raven2]

Sigh! I guess I will offer my opinion here. I have been a teacher for 45 yrs and in my experience, getting down on new students does not help them learn, but rather turns them off to the subject matter. I am not saying you need to be PC (in fact, like Brian, I am very much against it, it hides the truth.) but one of the main tenants of teaching is to use POSITIVE feedback to help people learn. There have been times here when that has not taken place. I am not saying that it needs to be "everyone is a winner" but pointing out errors in a positive light is a much better way to approach people and more likely to help people learn (and keep them interested).

[Dr Fox]

When I first applied for membership here, there were several posters who are no longer posting, but might still be watching.

 

There were two I remember, who were taking more than their fair share of flack for items they posted. One stubbornly gave back as good as he got, and believe me he did get it!

 

It wasn't so much the attempts to “shock into reality” or the ‘thickness of skin test” that was so unattractive, but the feeding frenzy that inevitably followed.

I don’t think that anyone would choose, to be made to look a fool on this worldwide forum! But it's a fair question to ask. “Has it happened?“

 

Of course there are experts on here, which goes without saying, they have done it, seen it and got the T-shirt. But for the rest of us mere mortals not knowing is what draws us to this site. So it's the sugar or big stick, there is no knowing which you are going to get.

 

As folks stop posting as said here, and it is a fact they are. Then the chance of the rest of us gaining any knowledge from the advice given is nil.

[hxv]

I think this subject has come up time and again in the past, and in the end, people "agreed to disagree." This situation will not change, ever, because we are all different in our personalities and beliefs, and this forum is maintained and posted on a voluntary basis. Short of paying people a salary, one cannot effectively legislate behavior. The mods have done a great job to ensure decent behavior (no name-calling, foul language, etc.), but other than that, all is fair game.

 

For people giving advice, please see Fred's post above. I don't think it will cost us anything to give advice in an impersonal manner - just the facts. There is no need to be warm and fuzzy if we don't feel like it, but we can leave our frustrations out of the posts.

 

For people seeking advice, please remember that people give their valuable advice here for free, and they have been answering the same questions over and over and over. They are only human, and frustrations get in the way of cordiality sometimes. We have to look past the apparent "rudeness" and see the motives. Why are people taking time out of their busy day to post answers to your questions? To insult you or to guide you? It takes a lot of time to post relevant info, especially if people have to crack open their (expensive) references and post pages for you to see. Please keep this in mind and look past the language used in the posts.

 

Life is all give-and-take, gentlemen (and ladies). I don't believe in world peace and utopia, but I believe we can tolerate and co-exist with others.

 

Hoanh

[IanB]

I cannot but agree with Dr. Fox. The knowledge base of the members of this Board are second to none in the English speaking world and I must applaud the way so many are willing to share their knowledge with others. Sadly there are times when I'm sure the moderators must feel like they are dealing with a bunch of petulant children or trying to plait fog. Many of the replies to questions are and cannot be other than opinions and it is inevitable that others will disagree and quite proper that they express their alternative views. Between experienced members and collectors, such interactions are expected and proper, but should at least be polite. What is unacceptable is for any query to elicit steams of what in some cases can only be described as invective. We all started from a zero base and if we are honest have all make mistakes or bought something that in hindsight we should not have. To a beginner who posts a query, or shows what to them is a treasure, anything but a polite response is totally unacceptable. How many potential members to this board we have lost I do not know but more than a few I would guess. I know the internet tends to lower peoples inhibitions and encourages outspokenness, but let us at the very least keep this Board civil.

Ian Bottomley

[kusunokimasahige]

I somehow found this very appropriate in this topic :

 

 

[Alex A]

Manners cost nothing, remember that new collectors are a rarity. One day we might want to get back what we have spent, a task which will be made more difficult if there is a dwindling number of new collectors and lower values. A phrase that springs to mind.

 

shoot oneself in the foot

1.(idiomatic) To act against one's own interests; to unintentionally behave self-destructively

[george trotter]

Sigh! I guess I will offer my opinion here. I have been a teacher for 45 yrs and in my experience, getting down on new students does not help them learn, but rather turns them off to the subject matter. I am not saying you need to be PC (in fact, like Brian, I am very much against it, it hides the truth.) but one of the main tenants of teaching is to use POSITIVE feedback to help people learn. There have been times here when that has not taken place. I am not saying that it needs to be "everyone is a winner" but pointing out errors in a positive light is a much better way to approach people and more likely to help people learn (and keep them interested).

 

Fred, that is well said ...and this is all I am saying also.

Look, I don't mind a fight on issues, I don't mind a difference of opinion and I don't mind "telling it like it is" in regards to a newbie asking about his find...it's just how you go about it. I don't think respect is PC! PC is saying to someone "Happy Holidays" instead of "Happy Christmas". That's not what I'm about... PC is impossible for thinking people, and it is a red herring to say that answering a "dumb" question politely is just being PC .

There is always room for different approaches, vigorous discussion, and agreement to disagree on NMB, in fact, in a perverse way, I'd like the Inai Brothers to come back as we always need a ying and yang....I just remember that last time they were here they generated a lot of heat, but very little light! That is the danger when you are so totally self-absorbed, very little light gets out (like a black hole :lol: ).

To illustrate this point, I understand there was another edged weapons site that virtually ceased to operate because the attitude and rudeness of one of the Inai Brothers drove away the audience...so what does that say about "attitude"...and after he had ruined that site he brought his attitude here and was joined by a band of acolytes who also wanted to be admired as nihonto "glitterati".

Conversely, there is also room for "eccentricity"...I also understand that one of the Inai Brothers wrote many learned nihonto papers, these are very helpful to students of nihonto when they read them, but sadly, you just can't ask him any questions because he only answers the "right" question (like visiting an oracle really ).

The philosophy that some people just aren't worth answering or are totally undeserving of respect is a dead end street. I am not saying that all must adopt my philosophy, I am just saying that IMHO one way "works" and one way doesn't!

 

One last comment (sorry)...being without ego is not a weakness, it does not mean you have no self-respect, it just means you are a "sharer with your fellows" not a "dictator to the servile masses".

There is one member here whose avatar says this well...something about "first...kill the ego...",

Regards,

and thanks to Brian and the mods for putting up with all these opinions.

[paulb]

Not really sure where this thread is going. There seems to be a great deal of agreement as to how those who have been contributing to this board should react to new members, but in reality all that is really being described is common courtesy. I would hope that the points suggested could not be disputed by any reasonable person.

Fred,

I have never been a teacher but have spent many years developing teams in industry. I agree whole-heartedly that positive criticism is of much greater value than harsh negative. giving positive feedback also makes it easier when one has to give negative.

George,

you and I are about as far away as we can get in terms of core interest. Mine tapers off after about 1350 and yours begins in 1938. However we have enjoyed many, and I think constructive discussions. I do not know your reference to the "Inai Brothers" so cant comment. However you are in the habit of describing people as "elitist". I admit that this triggers a negative response from me. Not here but in the past at another group I was labelled as elitist. My only sin (I think) was to try and raise the level of study beyond looking at someone's latest eBay purchase. I failed and eventually left that group. It wasn't worth the hassle.

Also rudeness and bad behaviour is not one way traffic. I have contributed to this board from when Rich Turner took it over. I do not believe I have ever written anything rude, insulting or degrading to anyone. In the not too distant past a new member posted a mail recommending eBay as a place for beginners to buy. I made the mistake of disagreeing (politely). The result was a private mail, the content of which was too unpleasant to repeat but which concluded in inviting me to "slit my great fat belly and spill my stinking guts over the floor"

Thankfully that individual has been removed from the board.

The point ion mentioning it is that respect and courtesy is a two way street. Everyone deserves to be treated with respect and to be encouraged. This includes those with experience who give their time to share it and help.

[george trotter]

Hi Paul, yes good comments. I agree, a two way street.

Without wishing to drag this out for too long, can I make comment on two points:

 

1. The elitist is the guy who just "knows" (as Baldrick would say "I know soo much, I ache!), consequently, you can't have a discussion with him. Anyone who doesn't blindly follow becomes a target. The one-liners start, usually accompanied by pictures of dogs and bunny rabbits etc etc.. To me this behaviour indicates a defective mind, not an elite mind. This has not happened here since Brian cleaned the place up (thanks Brian).

 

2. raising the level of study...what we do here is raising the level. many have expressed thanks for being pointed in the right direction...at NMB, I'd like to think we teach newbies "how" to think, not what to think. Nihonto is a very wide field and as you mention yours and my fields are vastly different...but as you and I can be different but still respectful, all readers benefit from learning more about the various discussions. They can choose their own field from this. This outcome can only be achieved if all parties are willing to share knowledge in a clear, reasoned, instructive way...as we do. We can't succeed if we have elitists (see item 1.) as it usually produces two "camps' the "in" camp (Inai) and the "outsiders" camp (Soto).

 

Hope this helps,

[Dr Fox]

Paul

Any posts of yours I have seen, have be interesting to read, I remember the subject of the unpleasantness that you received and how it was dealt with. As a board member I was not privy to any contents of the PM. But am now.

What was written to you was well out of order, but I hope you agree, an occurrence like that is a rare happening, that particular NEW members attitude was aggressive from the get go. Thanks for the insight.

[kusunokimasahige]

I think that the "Inai brothers" here references to people who constantly say No you cant. Or No it cannot be like this. Or no you cant go there. Or, Impossible. Or there is not.

 

I do not think that this is about a real family called "Inai".

 

 

.

[Brian]

I'm locking this one before it goes down a road I see it going. Be very careful not to overlook the "In" crowd as people who actually DO know what they are talking about, and whose advise should sometimes be heeded. Ford will tell you very well about the Japanese master/student relationship, sometimes you just accept it. No more subtle jabs at "Inai bothers" etc please. It's really not cute or funny especially when slipped in at every opportunity. The danger is in alienating people like Paul here, who gives good advice and shouldn't have to defend himself.

Oh, and KM...sometimes you can't. Or it isn't. Or your shouldn't. People need to deal with that fact.

 

Brian