What have I got here (WWII Naval)?

[Gregory J Liebau]

Hello folks,

 

This sword was gifted to my grandfather after WWII. He was a captain of an American minesweeper, and was charged with overseeing a number of Japanese sweepers that were tasked with clearing out their own bays full of mines. My father knows more of the details of the story, but I regret that I do not know which bay it was, or who it was that gave my grandfather this sword. I do know that it was the captain of the Japanese minesweepers, and that he gave it to my grandfather as a sign of gratitude after my grandfather allowed the Japanese several days' holiday leave amidst their work. The captain approached my grandfather's boat a second time (after returning from holiday with his crews) armed only with the sword, so my grandfather, being hesitant, equipped himself with a pistol and met the officer in open water on a small lifeboat. He was given the sword at that time, and returned home to California with it several months later.

 

I am an enthusiastic collector of reproductions of historical weaponry and have read some about Japanese swords. When it comes to recognizing the details of swords like this, I am ignorant. My father has the sword taken apart some years ago and a man confirmed to him that the sword was apparently re-hilted, and they were unable to decipher the text on the tang. With this in mind, I decided to take it apart again this morning for photos that could be shared here. The bare blade measures 90cm straight across the top.

 

I know no details about this sword other than the obvious, that it was given to my grandfather by a Japanese naval officer and that I've seen the same sort of hilt setup on other "naval" swords from the WWII era. I would appreciate knowing anything further about this sword! My grandfather applied the varnish to the blade in 1945, and I decided to strip it off one side of the blade to reveal it in its fullness (I used rubbing alcohol and paper towels). He had the nickel plating re-done at some point since receiving the sword, though the sword itself has not been touched since 1945. Cheers!

 

- Gregory J. Liebau

 

(p.s. Larger images available in the photostream: Click Here!)

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Mark]

it is an ARMY officer's sword. This type was made from around 1900 until mid 1930's. Some were still in use in WWII. the blade looks like it is signed Yoshiyuki saku (made it). I may be confusing it with a different sword but I thought I saw this picture before, maybe on Gunbroker?

[Grey Doffin]

Hi Gregory,

The signature is, I believe, Yoshiyuki Saku (Yoshiyuki made). This is signed as a tachi, the earlier form of long sword, so it may be fairly old (centuries). Don't attempt any more restoration; the next step is to get it into the hands of someone who knows what he's looking at so you can begin to learn what you have.

Looks interesting, Grey

[Gregory J Liebau]

Thanks for the information, Mark. It definitely was not on Gunbroker! I took all of these photos this morning.

 

Grey, no fears. I do not plan to attempt any more maintenance on this sword. I'm just going to lightly oil the side of the blade that I stripped the varnish from, put it back together and hang it back up on the wall for the time being, or until I'm spurred to have a specialist look at it.

[Stephen]

All good advice, i would clean off any other varnish with acetone, just in case any rust is going on then light coat of machine oil.

[AikiScott1]

Hello and thanks for posting these pics, I love Kyu Gunto (even though I know this designation is technically incorrect. ) Besides the blade, which seems still in great shape, I find the mounts interesting as they are army type 8 mounts, dating from 1875-1886. I hope this info is of some interest and again thanks for the look.

---Scott M.

[george trotter]

That is a nice family treasure Gregory...well worth researching.

 

Scott, Just as point of interest, I have never heard that "kyu gunto" is technically incorrect...can you tell us how please?

 

Regards,

[reeder]

As others have told you, army kyu-gunto. I've had a few too many bud's and can't make out the signature but the fellows who have commented know there stuff (far more than I) so listen to what they have to say. How long is the cutting edge? How long is the total blade (not in the mounts)? Great piece to hang on to. I just wish my father and uncle had kept all the swords they were trading in the 60s and 70s but my father always says he didn't know he was going to have a son who was going to be a hoarder.

 

-Brandon

[AikiScott1]

Hello again, and the reason that I said that the term Kyu Gunto is technically incorrect for this sword is because, as Jim Dawson points out in his book, the term Kyu Gunto means proto, or first military sword, but this pattern was in fact not the first military pattern sword mounting approved by the Japanese government.--- Scott M.

[george trotter]

Hi Scott, thanks for that.

I don't have Dawson, but I suspected that was the reason you said it.

In fact, the use of the English word "prototype" is not an exact translation of the meaning of the word "kyu".

Kyu-gunto means Old-gunto...meaning "old style" as opposed to the "new styles" introduced in 1934.

Before 1934 the sword in your pic were just "gunto" and in 1934 when they introduced the "new" gunto, they started to call yours "kyu gunto" or old style gunto.

The misinterpretation of meaning, or at least the intended meaning of kyu appeared in the early works of western sword writers and has simply continued.

So...in case there are people who think these are somehow a "prototype" mount in the line of military mountings, then no...they are simply the "Old Pattern".

Hope that helps,

edit to add:

meant to say that gunto mounts introduced in 1934 were called shingunto = new gunto...so previous gunto became kyugunto=old gunto.

[Gregory J Liebau]

Thanks again for the replies! The subject of terminology is very interesting, and I'm fine with calling it a kyu gunto based on what I see online when I search that term. Glad to know what it is. The "type 8" hilt pattern was mentioned, which also pulls some photos of similar hilts online when I post it, but just searching for kyu gunto also leads to similar results without the assurance of the hilt's age (1875-1886 was mentioned). Any more information about the hilt and fittings specifically? I see many that seem to have the same initial casting as this piece, but are much more ornately decorated or have additional details of various sorts such as wire wrapped between the rayskin ridges in the tsuka. Would these sorts of details have been left to the individual makers/patrons of the swords, or did they signify distinctions in rank, etc?

 

Are there any books on the subject of Japanese military swords that I can try getting a hold of to learn more?

 

Cheers!

 

-Gregory

[Kai-Gunto]

The backstrap on the kyugunto tells rank.

Yours are company grade and missing the thread/wire on the handle.

 

Book : Japanese civil and military swords . From gregory and fuller.