Early Menuki Study Thread: Ezo vs Ko Mino

[Ford Hallam]

Thanks Gents

 

and Guido, Jōko-Kinkō 上古金工 sounds very apt. We shall ...

 

[Guido]

Ford, I'm flattered - I thought I might rather be subjected to

[Ford Hallam]

That wouldn't be logical, Guido.

 

Besides, I tend to see you as this fellow

 

 

sorry Junichi, we're get back to the topic now....

[Pete Klein]

Pete Klein: Guido and Ford agreeing. This board is headed for a disaster of biblical proportions.

 

Brian: What do you mean, "biblical"?

 

Ted: What he means is Old Testament, Mr. Administrator, real wrath of God type stuff.

 

Pete Klein: Exactly.

 

Ted: Fire and brimstone coming down from the skies! Rivers and seas boiling!

 

CG: Forty years of darkness! Earthquakes, volcanoes...

 

Door Mouse: The dead rising from the grave!

 

Pete Klein: Human sacrifice, dogs and cats living together... mass hysteria!

 

Brian: All right, all right! I get the point!

[Guido]

Pete Klein: Guido and Ford agreeing. This board is headed for a disaster of biblical proportions.

Pete, I think you got it all wrong. Ford and I actually agree on most things; with the possible exception of how to properly use a semicolon.

[Pete Klein]

Of course. That's why he has you in the 'Vulcan Death Grip' above...

[Brian]

While I love the informal breaks in between serious "discussion", I can almost hear some of the collectors screaming "Get back on topic!"

I hope Boris will continue to contribute his thoughts, as well as Ford and others. It is only really while going through this process that we will get anywhere in these studies, and all contributions help towards coming to come sort of commonality or progress.

We need people to submit their theories, experience and studies in order to progress, otherwise we revert back to the old theories that are clearly insufficient.

So more "force" I guess...and less "may the farce be with you"

 

Brian

[Ford Hallam]

Ford and I actually agree on most things; with the possible exception of how to properly use a semicolon.

damn!...I thought I'd managed to avoid using any, changed it now

[DirkO]

While I love the informal breaks in between serious "discussion", I can almost hear some of the collectors screaming "Get back on topic!"

 

[Ford Hallam]

hmmm, seems no matter how much is given freely there are always those who demand more

[Brian]

Ford,

Usually calls for an encore are seen as a good thing :D

 

Brian

[kaigunair]

the breaks are welcomed after such intensive information exchanges. So glad that it hasn't become:

 

So much good info, I have a virtual spinning hour glass in my head trying to process and develop my own personal "unified theory" of these joko-kinko (ancient period soft metal) fittings. A little humor helps to avoid having a mental "blue screen of death", too much and the thread becomes useless.

 

I'm fully aware that my attempts to try to combine the various elements might cause me to completely offend everyone and everything that has been put here, as I've seen how I've already misunderstood or misinterpreted some of the info give.... So, here's to one last mental/off topic break:

[christianmalterre]

sorry Gents!

this all discussion was interesting till up to: Fri Jan 24, 2014 7:18 am

afterwards????????????????? (i have to confess-and certainly am not sole here)

 

(to but jump in;and show you an eventual result?... )

 

"This general lack of faith is disturbing!"

 

"Theatricality and deception are powerful agents to the uninitiated... but we are initiated-aren't we ???"

 

in sum: interestingly well done here !

 

 

up to your´s game now...

 

Christian

[John A Stuart]

During the Tang era Japan traded extensively with China, by way of Korea at times and during hostilities with Silla, which dominated this trade, predominately through Guangzhou and ports along the Fujian and Zhejiang coasts. This was known as the Yellow sea trade. The artisans that created metal ornamentation for armour and swords, I believe, originally came from the group that made metal ornamentation for temples and palaces. This was the time at which the ring pommel sword was transitioning to a newer type of sword 唐代刀 . When we look at relics of these ring pommel swords we can see how the fittings were made of copper and subsequently gilded. The swords of the Tang era were imported into Japan and Japanese smiths then started making them as well. Whether the smiths who made these swords also made the fittings is speculative, but, I believe there were a separate group of artisans we could term kanagushi 金具師, expert in making gilt copper ornamentation. Perhaps these were immigres from China and Korea, however it would be logical to think local metalworkers soon learned the techniques needed to create these Chinese inspired works of art. I have included some pics of swords from the period that illustrate the work of Chinese kanagushi. Note the similarity to some of the swords posted by Boris. John

[Henry Wilson]

Hi John

 

I think the last picture is of a tosoko and is not a sword. I think it is classed as a type of pen knife and is about 11cm long. It looks like a colour version of one I posted on page 2 of this thread.

[Guido]

hmmm, seems no matter how much is given freely there are always those who demand more

You took the words right out of my mouth.

 

I think this thread has run its course, and unless there is new evidence, we are going to run in circles (it actually has begun already, plus - of course - the usual cryptic remarks in an alien language).

[John A Stuart]

Yes, it is a tosoku, Henry. Out of a book on Chinese sword development. John

[Henry Wilson]

Interesting John. Can I ask, what book is it? Cheers.

[John A Stuart]

"Iron and Steel Swords of China' 中国刀剑 by Jiang Huangfu. It is in Chinese. John

[BMarkhasin]

Sad to come back to a thread after a couple of days to find it has been diluted with a bunch of crap posts. Philosophizing with a hammer...

 

The Rosin book examples are lovely, and while I have not handled them directly, some of them (page 127) look a lot like a couple of examples I posted which have little or no sukashi, and could have been used on items other than koshirae, such as ornamental box fittings. The TNM has a great example on display (I visited in November 2013), dating to the Muromachi (15th c.), with a number of very similar pieces affixed to an urushi writing/paper box. In particular, the phoenix on page 127 seems incongruous as a piece of tosogu due to its vertical orientation, but that is not to say it could not have been used as saya kanagu. In particular, the tsuba is very interesting. I have seen only one other of this type.

 

Discussion of Ezo works is encumbered by the term “Ezo”, and shoe-horning these works into a concept of a school. Both of these aspects are unsupportable and ideally should be dropped. The designation of ‘Ezo’ is a terrible misnomer since it equates a group of fittings with regional, cultural and chronologic implications. Emishi should not be used to describe these fittings for similar reasons. The implied idea of an Ezo school is unsupportable, since as I mentioned, ‘Ezo’ works span hundreds of years, and a large geography. These works encompass numerous manufacturing centers, but there is no evidence of a production associated with a non-Japanese ethnic group, that is to say they are not Emishi/Ainu products. These were made in all times, in all areas by Japanese craftsmen. Unfortunately, the term 'Ezo' is used by all collectors and shinsa organizations, and as such is not likely to go away any time soon. For better or worse, I have framed my discussion using this term. While I like Sho Ki-Kinko, or first period kinko, it also suffers from being too vague. You could use it from late Yayoi, and when do you stop using it? This term is not new to Japan, it has been proposed, but never caught on. Guido’s suggestion of Joko Kinko is interesting, but will run into similar problems. The question of terminology has a ways to go.

 

 

As to metallurgy, if you doubt that the majority of earlier pieces are shibuchi, all I can do is suggest hitting the books. In the 2008 KTK article, I discussed results from SEM EDS analysis of a number of pieces spanning Kamakura to Keicho. The analysis was conducted in the University of Calgary, under direction of the Engineering faculty’s Material Science Group. By 2008 a total of over 30 pieces of Ezo, Ko Mino and Ko Kinko were tested. I seem to recall Heckmann mentioned a shibuichi SEM result on a mid-Muromachi piece. Numerous publications have recognized the use of shibuichi, yamagane, silver, tin and gold.

 

Objection has been raised in this thread by my use of the idea of breaking up Ezo into periods, as well as an early northern influence. The assertion is that my comments are unsupportable, or at least difficult to support with available sources. My ideas are based on having collected, and handled numerous individual pieces as well as complete koshirae, and having detailed discourse with their owners. I could claim that early Ezo koshirae have a different shape, construction methodology and a variety of structural and artistic nuances which distinguish them from contemporary non-Ezo koshirae, and I think this may be due to northern association. People could and should insist on an explanation backed by visuals. Unfortunately, this can’t be easily be provided (understandably), since it would involve access not only to the pieces in question, but also to the Ezo comparison group, and predicated on everyone having access to other ‘standard’ period koshirae – which also isn’t going to happen. Not to mention insights from years of review of published and unpublished materials. It comes down to a level of faith, or at least suspension of disbelief, under the premise that I have been thoughtful with the materials, and have nothing to gain by promoting any specific idea.

 

Without ownership or serious directed study, the most that can be aspired to is philosophizing and rehashing. You need to physically handle lots of high-end antiquities on an ongoing basis and discuss them with others in the know. If you want to know about Nobuie, Namban, Goto, armor, koshirae, etc.. talk to collectors (dealers) who have committed to their acquisition and study and ask to handle the pieces directly. When someone like Fred Geyer shares a view on Namban, whether it is easily supportable or not, I take it as meritous based on what I know of his depth of pursuit. I can think of a handful of people who may have handled or owned more than I have of Ezo works, and none participate in this forum.

 

As I said earlier, you can take it, leave it, use it or abuse it. From the PM’s and emails I am receiving, I am glad that many are choosing to use it. For those interested in actually learning something and gaining practical experience, I am always open to sharing my collection pieces and research, including participating in study groups.

 

I've poured a glass of wine, and look forward to the ever-entertaining commentary that is sure to follow.

 

Best,

Boris.

[John A Stuart]

I like your theory immensely, only I can't abandon the idea of extraterritorial precedent and influence in the style and construction of this type of fittings. The Ezo group might be better grouped in with the Tachikanagushi artisans. I had contemplated pruning some of the less relevent posts, but, felt constrained by social mores. John

[BMarkhasin]

Thanks John,

Extraterritorial influence exists all over NE Japan, and it is clearly documented that contact existed into the early Heian with known continental areas, and other named, but unidentified areas. However, so few pieces of tosogu exist from this period, from the north, it is impossible to show a clear influence. There is a lot of period material preserved in the Kinai, probably due to preferred trade and governmental mission routes. This is also why my theory suffers for evidence in the early phase. There are a couple of warabite koshirae preserved from the 8th/9th c, which show scroll work chased on metal bands encasing the saya, but it is fairly non-descript. Different from the examples you posted on kara-tachi (not so fine, or extravagant), and more like Kofun works. Then there is a frustrating gap (which suggests a re-evaluation is required), and we have the koshigatana attributed late Heian dates and termed 'Ezo', as well as late Heian attributed Kenukigata tachi, which have some ornament (also fairly non-descript). I have an idea for an indirect path of evidence which I am pursuing now, but its too early to comment.

 

Best,

Boris.

[Jean]

BTW, Boris, your website has been under reconstruction for a while, when will it be finished? It was very interesting and informative

[BMarkhasin]

Jean,

Thanks for the kind words. I am transferring the site to Andy Mancabelli, but he has been very busy in Japan lately and the timeline has kept slipping. I hope he will have it running sometime in the spring. I imagine that a notifier will be sent in advance of the restart.

 

Best,

Boris.

[Soshin]

Hi Boris,

 

I not much of a fan of "Ezo" tosogu hence my lack of participation on the topic. I really liked your website and I am always interested in seeing and possibly adding to my collection one nice Ko-Tosho or Ko-Katchushi tsuba. :D Just wanted to add my name to the record of fans of your website who can't wait to see it active again.

[Jean]

Copycat

[BMarkhasin]

Gents,

Thanks again for the positive comments and participation in the discussion. We have advanced the Ezo discussion enough I think to give everyone a pretty good flavor of the pieces and issues surrounding the group. What about the second part of Junichi's question - Ko Mino? We have had several items posted, but nobody has taken the lead in that discussion. I know there are a few advanced collectors of ko Mino out there, so can anyone take this lead? Looking forward to a healthy continuation.

 

Best,

Boris.

[Ford Hallam]

Looking forward to a healthy continuation.

 

I would have doubts about that possibility, Boris, after the way you chose to characterize some of the discussion as,

a bunch of crap posts.

 

To be so rude just because others disagreed with you it pretty poor form. All the more so when by your own admission you can't provide any real evidence for your ideas and suggest, "It comes down to a level of faith, or at least suspension of disbelief"

 

I, for one, expect more when someone presents a theory. I expect reasoned argument, not insults. I expect evidence not excuses and cries of a 'paucity of evidence'. Which in itself should give the author grounds to be hesitant. As for circular reasoning, that just leaves us all dizzy.

 

And as for your continued claim that your experience somehow gives you the uncanny ability to date the various groups of 'Ezo' works in terms of period (and that we ought to simply trust your judgement) I can only suggest you might find professional art historians to be somewhat sceptical of that claim.

 

But I don't expect this sort of discussion to actually lead to any sort of reasoned evaluation of what we can really suggest we know. It seems to me to be a matter of dogma, as suggested by your, Boris', calling for " a level of faith, or at least suspension of disbelief" This is simply absurd in intellectual and research terms.

[John A Stuart]

Ford, I think Boris was referring to the Star Trek posts and related that strayed from the topic. I don't want to put words in anyone's stead, but, sometimes they can be distracting. Good disagreement and measured responses are all good. John

[BMarkhasin]

It would have been nice if art historians would have applied attention to Ezo tosogu, but that did not happen. Rather than reinvent the wheel, the first thing I did when I began researching, was inquire in Japan on whether anyone had pursued this topic. Unfortunately, the answer was 'largely no'. Sasano began to look at Ezo koshirae as evidence to frame his ideas on uchigatana development, and idea that certain groups of tosogu were often older than conventional art-historians were thinking. When you look at the Heian / Kamakura period Emaki (horizontal scrolls), you see blade-edge up swords being utilized. Often, these are without tsuba, broad, not particularly long, and ornamented with bands / rings. They resemble Ezo koshigatana. This is a whole other topic to pursue perhaps in the Nihonto section of the board.

 

 

Best,

Boris.