SOUNDING OFF

[Fred Geyer]

WHY , MUST CHINA DESTROY A HOBBY!!

 

They make fake coins, tsuba, swords, leather goods, anything that people collect they go and make fake crap to ruin it !! What is up with them????? Ebay has more crap from China then real stuff, do they just set around and look to see what else they can copy and steal new peoples money...man I really get sick of it!!

 

I feel better!!!

 

Fred Geyer

[cabowen]

 

do they just set around and look to see what else they can copy

 

Yes indeed!

 

They have even copied our capitalistic model....

[John A Stuart]

I watched a show the other day that illustrates how ingrained the quest for money is in China. Do not get me wrong, we all desire it, but, the Chinese have made it an art form. In Hong Kong a fellow bought a three legged bronze beaker. It has a name and is a famous form, but, not important here. He was told it was Tang dynasty. He bought it for about $250 US knowing full well it was fake. He took it to high end dealers in Hong Kong and they would not go on record as saying it was fake because of the trouble they could get in with certain groups. He took it back and after much discussion and stating he wasn't trying to get his money back, got the owner to admit they are made by the thousands in mainland China for the tourists for about under a dollar. If real it would be worth tens of thousands. Here is the important part. The owner said, 'If you believe it is real, it is and if you believe it is fake, it is.' He also admitted that it was made one and half months ago and not Tang dynasty. It is really telling isn't it, if you don't know any better you will be happy and that is good, everybody is happy. It is when you question something that everybody is no longer happy, it is up to you. Porcelain is particularly hard to detect and there is so much fake stuff in museums that is so well reproduced they will never be found out as fake. Still, if you must buy it, consider it fake and be happy. :D John

[Fred Geyer]

What about honesty , truth and hell just being just a good person?? I see that the buyer beware thing, but to to keep tring untill you perfect making copies to screw people is just wrong!!

In the coin world they fake every major coin and date, they are so good unless you have a loop you cant tell, so have a new person spends there first $500.00 they saved for months to get they find out they got screwed and for ever GONE is the next generation in the hobby.

I see there crap at every gun show, even in major auction houses are fake china crap!! The iron tsuba they are making are good and will take young new people in the hobby, they will buy it get screwed and also gone!!

All I see is that culture distroying every hobby untill all we do is sell things back and forth to each other.

 

Fred Geyer

[Pete Klein]

"Never give a sucker an even break or smarten up a chump".

W.C. Fields.

 

PS: You know there is some justice in life. There is a big trade in fine wine in China for all of those 'too big bucks guys'. It seems there have been a number of sellers bottling cheap wine in reproduction French Grande Cru bottles and selling them at exorbitant prices. Now then, any oenophile knows a 2010 Chateau Lafite which sells for about $1000/bottle (750ml) won't even be ready to drink until at least 2020 through 2050. So there they are, obsessing over their fake wine and all it's charms. Payback is a you know what.

[John A Stuart]

Honesty, honour, yes, in an ideal world. It is like finding a true friend. When you do, it is something rare and to be cultivated, as is a good relationship with people in your hobby. The honest honourable dealer eventually gains a reputation that spreads. All we can do is steer people away from the bad ones and try to point them to a better course. I've been nailed and if I could would cleave an ear or two as punishment. It is the auction mills that are killing the hobby, what can we do? Even arms shows have repro stuff. John

[Pete Klein]

I was just thinking that if more collectors would treat their hobby as a doctor treats the study of medicine they would be better off. First, you take classes, buy books, study, attend seminars, attend conventions, etc. You do not treat patients until years of effort have you ready to take your first steps and then those steps are under direct supervision by professionals with years of experience. If the collector would buy books, go to shows, attend lectures, join study groups or organizations and then, after a few years begin to purchase with counsel of their mentors they would all be much better off. But, of course this breaks the great laws of 'immediate gratification' and 'the constitutional right to make a fool of oneself'... :| (lol)

[christianmalterre]

Agree definitely here with you!

 

think,for those who started already some years ago-the task in collection is still stony but considerably easy at least...

 

Our´s friends from Mao(Please Who?) indoctrinated "rule and order"(LOL!)-just are simply to stupid so to realise that they do progressively digg their´s own grave here...

 

just an matter of time for us Westeners....

(You in the U.S. did already realise...i just wonder how long these "politicians" in Europe will take till they do awake...?????)

We got them before-we will "get" them in future equally!

(The Royal Navy is still existant-LOL!)

 

So No worry!

 

Christian

[kusunokimasahige]

“The Master said, “Wealth and honor are things that all people desire, and yet unless they are acquired in the proper way I will not abide them. Poverty and disgrace are things that all people hate, and yet unless they are avoided in the proper way I will not despise them.

 

“If the gentleman abandons ren, how can he be worthy of that name? The gentleman does not violate ren even for the amount of time required to eat a meal. Even in times of urgency or distress, he does not depart from it.”

(Analects 4.5)”

 

Confucius.

 

Who still rules China with a firm hand, Communism or no Communism.

[obiwanknabbe]

I share in the general sentiment of anger over the myriad of fakes being pumped out of China. I wish there were a way to filter everything from China out of my Ebay searches.

 

I will temper that statement by saying that I have, on rare occasion, been happy to have them available. The major element is cost. Some fakes are priced high and are intended to deceive. Those are abhorrent. Then, on the other hand, there are those that are sold as exactly what they are. Take for example some of the martial arts grade supplies made by Paul Chen in the past. They are not original and are priced accordingly.

 

Considering that some of the fakes are so good that they are undetectable, It has served as a good means by which to replace missing parts on some WW2 blades that I have had over the years. About a decade back I needed a new saya for a Kanekado Gendito I picked up. The blade was fine but the saya was completely shot. You have all likely seen the garage sale specials before; saya broken into 4 pieces, duct-taped, and spray painted.

 

Well for a couple dollars, a few minor tweaks, and the swapping of original metal furniture, the reproduction wood saya was a perfect fit for a real type 98 mount and it didn't cost me $600+ to have it made.

 

Now it looks good, serves it purpose, and makes me happy. In this way the fakes can come in handy.

 

in all other regards the fakes are a crime.

 

Just my 1864 2 cent piece (not a fake).

 

Kurt.K

[ROKUJURO]

Gentlemen,

 

reading all these comments on fakes, I want to add my view on it.

 

About thirty-five years ago, there was an auction of Japanese art at Lempertz in Köln, Germany. One of the blades on display was a gorgeous KATANA with HITATSURA HAMON and a very long O-GISSAKI. It looked very nice, but an advanced collector I met there told me it was GIMEI and not KIYOMARO as the signature implied. Nevertheless it looked very desirable to my untrained eyes.

 

Later I learned that this sword was bought by a professional dealer from Japan. I could not understand this, because I thought he should have known it was GIMEI. The collector explained to me that the dealer knew exactly what he was buying (at a price of something around DM 8.000.--; quite a lot then), and he explained about the mentality of private Japanese buyers. He said this sword would very probably be sold at a much higher price to a private collector without mentioning the GIMEI - and without being asked about it either! If the sword was about the quarter of the price of a genuine KIYOMARO (or even less), the new owner would know what it was, be happy with it, keep it in his TANSU, perhaps even not telling his closest friends about the purchase, and never show it to someone to avoid being called a boaster.

 

The German collector said, the price difference made the fake obvious, so nobody felt a necessity to talk about it. It would not have been polite to mention it.

 

Later I learned also that O-MINOGAME, the 1.000-year-turtle, is not exactly 1.000 years old - it is just old. This and some others stories taught me that terms like 'genuity', age, 'truth' and 'original' can have different meanings in different cultures.

 

To sum this up I suspect the Chinese fakers do not at all feel bad about their business. They might even not feel guilty when they are caught selling pirated products. To an extent this could be a question of Asian mentality.

[cabowen]

One thing I learned from my many years of living in Japan is that in Japan, there are things more important than the truth...

[Stephen]

I was shocked when i looked at the tag to find out where my very supple well built new leather sofa and chair were made...at least it was not Vietnam. Can you guess?

[Alex A]

Same place as my trousers Stephen

[Stephen]

I guess they supply the world with everything

[Alex A]

I know a few folk who are doing well on Ebay at the moment, all importing from China, cheap bronze statues etc

[kusunokimasahige]

I buy a lot from China. Model aeroplanes mostly.

[Robert Mormile]

One thing I learned from my many years of living in Japan is that in Japan, there are things more important than the truth...

 

(I am not making a judgment call on religion, just illustrating a point.) Biblical scholars (those that study physical evidence) believe that Jesus was born in April. Religious followers believe Jesus was born in December.

 

The sword in Japan is more than just an object used as a weapon. The realms of religion, history, folklore and myth must come into play. To adherents of anything other than the forensic mindset, the scientific method is simply not important.

 

Robert

[watsonmil]

Dear Jean C.

" To sum this up I suspect the Chinese fakers do not at all feel bad about their business. They might even not feel guilty when they are caught selling pirated products. To an extent this could be a question of Asian mentality.

"

 

After having been the proprietor of one of the largest Antique and Militaria store sites on the Internet, ... selling high end items all over the world and dealing with many major museums, virtually all movie studios, governments including the US government ( Library of the Congress ) and White House, the government of South Korea ( South Korean Secret Service ) to name a couple that come to mind, as well as the wealthiest of private collectors to the average client with a limited budget, I think I can speak with a little authority on the mentality of the Asian when it comes to business.

 

All Asians treat business as war. Unless they can beat you down to a surrender of any profit, they feel they have not succeeded. The Art object is not the begin all end all with them, ... it is the game of negotiating at any cost the best deal. I once sold a WWII Enigma Machine to the South Korean Secret Service for display in their offices in Seoul. The negotiations went on for months, until finally they crossed a line and I told them to F off and never call me again. This suddenly threw them into a panic, ... and speaking to my wife by phone ( I would not take their call ) they lost everything they had negotiated with me and I now dictated the terms of the deal and I was not easy.

 

In yet another example, ... I was in Chicago attending a sword show, and a group of three Japanese dealers ( one is the spotter, one is the negotiator, the last comes in for the kill ) wanted a sword I had. I was wined, dined and offered the services of two lovely and very young Japanese girls. I accepted the wine, the food, but dared not accept the girls as then they would have used that indiscretion as a bargaining chip without doubt ( even morality was a tool in their arsenal ).

 

Yet, ... I must say virtually every European government or museum I have dealt with have been good to their word and although negotiating on high priced items is to be expected, I always felt good in the end. The one exception has been my own Canadian government who have used everything from threatening invoking the Heritage Act to out right lying in my dealings with them. They lost big time by the way.

 

... Ron Watson

[drbvac]

One mans fakes = You would be amazed - well maybe not at the number of well known articles made in CHina, including the working mechanisms for very high end watches, all sorts of electronics (Apple is well documented) and thousands of other articles. The owners of the companies dictate the quality and the chines supply all the labour you want at 2 bucks an hour. NA can not compete on any level as we are supporting it and will not pay what it would cost for well over half the stuff we buy if made in the US at 12 bucks an hour. Why do you think Walmart pays minimum wage - cause it can and thats what makes them the huge profit.

 

Friend was buying a NIKE leather golf bag and when in the store he looked and said - "Well it is identical but no logo? The guy took it in back and with a stencil put on the NIKE label in 10 minutes and they are identical to the real ones because they are mad win the same factory !

 

I buy LED lights similar / identical to Philips bulbs at 25% or the cost direct from china - free shipping -

 

Consumers created the problem - remember when EVERYTHING cheap and weird had MADE IN Japan on the bottom - ?? Not any more and in 10 years - same from China.

[hybridfiat]

Cartier and Rolex watches are available (at a high price) that stump even jewelers.

Real gold, mechanisms that are so close to the originals that even taking the back off is no use to any but the most experienced watch collector. The price is a magnitude less than the real, but who cares?

So if they are so close and so good why sweat about their origin?

I have a very exclusive watch by Repossi. He does not or didnt at that time make two alike. Yet no-one Ive ever met even knows who he is so the watch is really just for my pleasure and daily use. I like his style.

If I had to buy another daily use watch it would be a repro Cartier Santos. No-one could ever tell.

[watsonmil]

Dear Steve,

You said : " No-one could ever tell. " I beg to differ with you the most important person who would know, .... would be YOU.

... Ron Watson

[Justin Grant]

When that fancy knock-off dies, Rolex won't fix it, nor an authorized dealer. With Rolex, you buy not only the watch, but a company to support you and with a long and storied history. My father has a 1942 Rose Oyster Rolex. It lost its perpetual day/date function last year. He took it to a Rolex Dealer and in 3 days it was working as new at no cost. Get that with a knock-off.

 

 

So by this mentality, if the Chinese make an exact forgery of a Japanese Natural Treasure, is it real or memorex? Do you own a high end Nihonto or a knock-off?

[slashxu]

Gentlemen,

 

Your frustration is understandable. Being a Chinese American, I must say I am not proud of all the counterfeit activities that goes on in China and spreading across the globe. It is actually even harder for me to hear comments like this because I feel ashamed for my fellow Chinese, and there is no escaping from my heritage nor do I want to. However, I just want to remind everyone that there are good and honest people everywhere, and there are thieves and crooks everywhere also. This being counterfeiters stereotype that is developing for the Chinese is not something people like me want to see. China is undergoing dramatic social and political changes. Good and bad things will happen. Being the largest population country in the world, a large percent of people come from poor and uneducated background. The only thing they can do to make money and to live a better life is to copy. I'm afraid honor is sacrificed when faced with poverty for a lot of people. While new laws and changes are being put into place, changes will take time. As for me, I can only better myself and attempt to influence the people around me. I think that's all I can hope to do. I also wish everyone can see pass the negativeness that may or may not directly affect you, and learn to see the positive even if it seems gloom.

 

One advise, those who get burn the worst are those who are always looking for a deal from people who claims to give the best deals. Know where to look, who to talk to, and most importantly know your stuff. These are crucial in any type of business transaction. That is true in every country.

 

Best Regards,

 

James

[John A Stuart]

James, not only China. Mexican and Southwestern states pottery, African tribal art, Russian iconography, Tibetan religious art and on and on. Wherever there is a market there is fakery. It is understandable, if I was poor and there was no other way to make a living, damn right, I'd be throwing pots too. What is really irksome is gang controlled fakery where the workers get next to nothing and the bosses get huge profits. Not much we can do though. John

[nihonto1001]

China is taking over economically by producing half of world's s**t.

 

I just bought a brand new pair of Calvin Klein shoes. I was surprised to find one shoe was an inch longer than the other, but marked the same. Guess where it was made.

 

I am convinced that it is a conspiracy... Chinese drywall, toxic dog food, auto & motorcycle parts that fail and/or never work (that's another story)...

 

On the flip side, sometimes these things are originally sold as knock-offs, but resellers try to pass them off as real.

 

As far as antiques, it just makes honto more desirable, in my opinion.

[kaigunair]

I was just thinking that if more collectors would treat their hobby as a doctor treats the study of medicine they would be better off. First, you take classes, buy books, study, attend seminars, attend conventions, etc. You do not treat patients until years of effort have you ready to take your first steps and then those steps are under direct supervision by professionals with years of experience...

 

How I wish there was such a "course" available at the local college or even nihonto club! Problem is, hard for neophytes to know who are the local "professionals" when there are no such certifications. the NMB Board is a great source locating such persons because you can at least read through past posts.

 

But it also would also be hard for anyone just reading through the forum to feel there was anyone qualified, given the level of critiques and comments regarding certifying organizations such as the NBTHK and NTHK, as well as the "mistakes" made and pointed out in the forum by the giants in the collecting fields, as found in their books and writings.

 

Like the deference given to the teaching doctors, those studying under them must give them great deference for the knowledge and skills imparted in their fields, but I'm also sure the "student" doctors also know their mentors are human, having preferences and opinions, and prone to the occasional mistake. Its sad that it is often the lack of such respect shown during nihonto forum "consultations", especially among the "professionals" to on another, that pushes the more knowledgeable away.

 

Yes, there are some fakes/frauds/uninformed or plain bad apples that should be unmasked and exposed for the falsehood they perpetuate, but probably not nearly as many as we think we see....

 

Oh, and regarding Chinese fakes, once they get to a high level of reproduction, they absolutely have a chilling effect on the level of collecting as well as value of the real stuff...

[Henry Wilson]

I spent two very happy years of my life living in the North East of China in a small village called Longjing in the Yanbian Korean Autonomous region working for a British NGO charity, but while we are sounding off.....

 

But it also would also be hard for anyone just reading through the forum to feel there was anyone qualified, given the level of critiques and comments regarding certifying organizations such as the NBTHK and NTHK, as well as the "mistakes" made and pointed out in the forum by the giants in the collecting fields, as found in their books and writings.

 

This touches on something that has been bothering me for a number of years. I am surprised at how some members are so sure of themselves that they feel they are qualified enough to challenge Japanese sources. No one knows for sure what went on say 500 years ago in the world of nihonto but I imagine that Japanese scholars (or people who have spent their lives studying in Japan under Japanese tutelage) would have more of an idea than the collector who can not speak Japanese and would have problems reading a simple menu in Japanese, never mind not having spent much time living in Japan.

 

To me, the lack of Japanese who are willing to take part in online discussions says a lot and to me suggests that a lot of the Big Guns might not be so correct and might be best of keeping an open mind at times, and saving some good old fashioned face. It seems the bigger some get, the less willing they are to listen. We are all entitled to our opinions but sometimes I feel quite embarrassed for some members and how sure of themselves they sound.

[kaigunair]

there is an article in Bushido Vol 1, Issue 1 on ezo fittings where the opening of the article talks about the traditional Japanese path to study, as well as the sensei-student relationship. The gist of it is that it would be very difficult for a student come up with an original idea or question the sensei's belief while under his tutelage, and even harder after the sensei's death. The author concludes that being unencumbered by such an upbringing, western students can bring in valuable insights into studies such as nihonto/tosogu.

 

I don't know how true this is, but I've heard somewhat similar type discussions during my studies of ww2 Japanese military technology development and combat techniques, usually related to why the Japan lost...