Why are these NBTHK Juyo worthy tosogu?

[kaigunair]

As I struggle to understand and identify "quality" tosogu, items like these Juyo level pieces have me confused:

http://tsuruginoya.com/mn1_3/b00114.html

http://tsuruginoya.com/mn1_3/f00045.html

 

Similarly, I find it difficult to understand why a piece such as this would be in the $17k price range?

http://tsuruginoya.com/mn1_3/f00042.html

 

Are they Juyo level more for historical significance (very early pieces)? Are they are early pieces by famous schools thus warranting Juyo? Or is there a completely different reason?

 

From an aesthetic perspective, while I find the details fairly well rendered, it doesn't seem to be in the same level of detail or artistic composition of really nice machibori late edo works. Especially the $17k kozuka piece, with the nanako being so well worn down (similar with the ezo menuki wear), the fine details seems to be lost, while the loss of the guilding/inlay would make it easy to think of lower quality work if only casually glanced over on a table full of tosogu. I definitely feel that if there was a table full of tosogu and I was told to pick out the top quality ones, I would have completely missed these three items.

 

Would really appreciate some of the more seasoned members explaining how to discern top works such as these. What is making them so desirable?

 

Thank you very much in advance.

[cabowen]

Are they are early pieces by famous schools thus warranting Juyo? :

 

In a nutshell, yes.

[kaigunair]

If you could crack open that nut alittle, would be much appreciated.

 

Is it that they are top examples of early works of famous schools? Or are they middle I the road typical/representative examples that happen to be early?

 

Would an appropriate analogy be the desirability of a musashi Tsuba? Value being derived by the person's significance vs the design (or base metal characteristics in the case of iron tsubas)?

[John A Stuart]

All of those; rarity, artist of manufacture, condition (depending on age), provenance, quality, representationality, etc. John

[b.hennick]

The ko Mino piece could make a collection for someone. You just do not see that qua;ity available for $17k. Think about it, one could buy a very decent sword for that money.

[nagamaki - Franco]

Like nihonto, it is necessary to understand the history, the traditions, the schools, makers, the development; art-composition-materials of tosogu. In each of these instances you have examples that present all of these factors to a level determined to be of historical importance in their preservation. And also like nihonto, kantei is the key to providing the basis from to which to begin appreciation.

 

 

I definitely feel that if there was a table full of tosogu and I was told to pick out the top quality ones, I would have completely missed these three items.

 

I was told by one advanced nihonto person how he was just amazed and couldn't understand why one of the most important items in a meibutsu display a number of years ago was passed by with so little attention by collectors. In another instance not very long ago an item made by one of the top names in tosogu, signed no less, sat on a show sword table unrecognized all weekend until late Sunday AM when somebody did realize and understand what they were looking at, kantei.

[Toryu2020]

Junichi -

 

I would say in the case of the Mino and Goto pieces there may be quality we are not seeing in the photos. The base material is so very important and seeing top quality shakudo amid other examples for comparison really is the only way to understand.

 

As far as composition and execution there is a rustic simplicity in very early fittings that appeals to Japanese sensiblities. This quality is generally never equaled by the sloppy work using inferior material done by later artists, that are almost always copies. At first blush they might seem similar. You might miss these Ezo menuki on a table of odd pieces but as has been said a little study goes a long way.

 

There is a lot to be said for the great artists of the Edo period but from my perspective it is this early stuff that really excites.

 

-t

[kaigunair]

Thanks everyone for the replies. Perhaps I should have separated out each item on its own post, to inquire about the specific attributes that it make so desirable... hmmm....

 

One of the problems I now see I've run into in my current pursuit of tosogu knowledge is focusing a lot more on the work itself vs understanding the tradition/style/school it comes out of. I definitely understand how value is connected to the historical context of an item, and also to the fame of the individual artist; Just hasn't been major part of my current studies. Most of the books I have in english are good in explaining the factual backgrounds of the various schools and artists (the sesko books are really the best sources I've run into). But unlike nihonto ranking of sharpness or cutting ability, I haven't found anything similar ranking system or "top 10" lists of tosogu artists/works other than very subjective descriptive terms. I also understand that such a ranking system for tosogu in a manner akin to the sharpness scale in nihonto IS a fool's errand (so many problems judging art, I get it). Still, I'd really be interested in reading a list of schools & artists, and why each one is desired. For an extremely basic example of a desirability list:

Omori - undercut waves.

Yoshioka - ground work.

Tomei - millet nodules

 

For these examples:

Ezo: grass and insect themes on yamagane base, gold iro, katachi bori (maybe something about wabi sabi aesthetic)

ko-Mino: ?? (taka bori floral themes, consideration of high quality early nanako work but normally found well worn down)

 

 

Tom, thanks for the specific tip about how inspection of the base material is a key point in evaluating pieces such as these. This does sort of begin to veer toward the ilk of iron tsuba collecting, which I am as equally confused about. But it does help clarify some aspects of the trouble I'm having with these 3 pieces...

[Curran]

Rarity, age, condition, workmanship.

As Pete said a while back in regards to a tea cup, some of us have that 'ah ha' moment.

[FYI Pete, I recall an Isaac Asimov short story about the fate of the world being bought/saved for the sake of a tea cup]

 

I've seen the ko-goto kozuka. Photos mostly fail such things. Put it eye level on a table and look at it, and you might feel very different. The ko-mino flowers stand up like trees on a plain.

~ah-ha,

or Not.

To each their own. I'd own that kozuka, if I could. Have seriously thought about it a few times and watched the yen rate.

 

I also saw a set of ko-goto gold crab menuki (by Sojo?) in the NY Met, and had that ~ah-ha moment.

Living coastal and even chasing small crabs out of the house and off the dock now and then, those gold ones rivaled the real ones.

Or beat. No mud on them, but probably less tasty.

 

As others probably have said before, it is something you sort of need to see in person.

Attached is an image of a ko-mino menuki with Juyo papers. About 500 years or so old.

On my screen, the image is about 20 times the size of the actual menuki. For relative perspective, see the threads of the silk it rests on.

Putting it under higher magnification, I saw workmanship (undercuts and rounding, piercing of the central penta) that I cannot even see in this photo.

Also, it is nearly as deep as its top to bottom width. If you had an image from the side, it is like the profile of a major city.

 

Most people may prefer something larger and louder.

It might be easy to blow past these in a meibutsu room, only looking briefly at the small things without the help of magnification.

 

As if they menuki weren't small enough,

they were mounted in a smaller than standard box. Of course, inside another standard size box.

Attached should be a macro shot of it in its box at about 3x or 5x?

[Justin]

Wonderful menuki Curran. Thanks for posting.

 

I must admit I was a bit like Junichi and couldn't understand why these were so expensive. Now I get it.

[kaigunair]

Thanks Curran! :D

 

Very helpful post...and its helping to drop (or at least jostle) the scales from my eyes, so to speak. Thanks so much for the example and explanation.

 

Imagining the lovely posted menuki's depth from your description, I see the need for another parallel with nihonto: a set of photograph techniques or guidelines, like those created to properly photo the details of nihonto jigane and hada. The photo posted is a very good macro shot, but definitely can't feel the depth perspective. (No disrespect intended I have minimal photography knowledge; only recently by moving from cellphone cameras and point & shoot canons, to a sony NEX with zeiss glass did terms like "depth", "bokeh" as well as the importance of aperture control become meaningful and "real" to me).

 

Speaking of magnification for tosogu study: I recently got back a lab grade stereoscope (found off the local craigslist for practically nothing). Being able to zoom in on individual nanako is pretty amazing, as is seeing specs of pollen stuck in between crevices. I hope can find the parts on ebay for the ccd or camera attachment so I can take photos of what I'm seeing! Lugging the thing to the club meetings each month would be a bear, but I am seriously thinking about trying to set it up at the August show. At the same time, this is still only looking at the "surface", and not taking in the full sum-of-parts (i.e. historical and artistic significance ) , the latter of which I am only beginning to understand by studying examples like these Juyo with assistance of the NMB community.

 

Thanks much.

[Curran]

I recently got back a lab grade stereoscope

 

I suddenly know what I want for my birthday.

What a geek.

 

I don't know much past diddly about photography, but can say all ko-mino photography is for crap. Even that in the books.

Everything looks so flat and distorted. Much of it looses the deep angled undercutting element. Thus my own photos of the ko-mino menuki are also 'for crap'.

Richard George's halfdome photography might be the only thing able to put it in to proper perspective.

 

As how to capture the range of color in some of the ko-goto shakudo while it passes through different angles of light:

I'm sure there is a similar approach to RG's might work it you added the extra dimension of variable light sources.

[kaigunair]

I suddenly know what I want for my birthday.

 

:D (couldn't find a b-day cake smilie)

 

Here's a photo pulled from the 'net of a set up identical to mine. The black circle on the viewing head is where I've seen the models with CCD or camera attachments go. Its a beast, but thankfully I have a large desk and it makes me feel "serious about tosogu" when I see it.

 

 

A kind member PM'd me some low cost digital magnifiers...might be a good option, since those extra pieces I'm looking for might cost me many multiples of what I paid for the whole thing.

 

Anyone have a good sized x-y table/sled lying around?

[Curran]

tool envy.

I must be getting old.

[Ken-Hawaii]

Stereo microscopes are pretty darn cheap these days, Curran - take a look at http://www.ebay.com/itm/20X-Cordless-LED-Portable-Binocular-Stereo-Microscope-/400426469279?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item5d3b47079f, or if you want one with a digital camera http://www.ebay.com/itm/10X-20X-Stereo-Boom-Arm-Microscope-with-Light-1-3MP-Camera-/400641307480?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item5d48153358. Neither should break the bank.

 

I have a lab-grade microscope myself, & have jerry-rigged my 18 MP Canon SLR to the left tube. Don't use it all that often, though, as my macro lenses do just fine.

 

Ken

[Pete Klein]

Junichi -- early Ezo menuki were primarily shibuichi. This is why when the gilding is worn away (heat gilt gold/mercury technique) the base has a silvery/black tone. If you compare them to Ko Mino menuki you will see similar fabrication techniques which leads to the possibility there was an evolutionary thread tying the 'schools' together. Boris Markhasin has done some quite revealing work on the subject.

[kaigunair]

Pete, ah! Thank you for the info on shibuishi base of ezo menuki's!

 

Makes sense that similar type wear in ko mino might indicate a relationship between the schools. Fascinating!

[Pete Klein]

Yes, it is, isn't it? But it is not the wear. Take a look at the 'construction' of the Ko Mino menuki here: http://home.earthlink.net/~jggilbert/kodogu.htm

 

and then look at the Ezo menuki here: http://tetsugendo.com/

 

Take a close look at the ura especially. You will see the same construction in both. Neither made a great effort to conceal the remnants (jagged edges) of the 'punch through' technique to open the sukashi. The Mino artisans did much later but this is a kantei point for earlier works.

[rkg]

The short answer is that you need to look at a fair number of good pieces in hand at your leisure - really look at them, more than once if possible, preferably with good light and decent magnification available (even though I'll study a piece for quite a while before shooting it, I'm very often amazed at what I "see" when I look at the blown-up images, even though I spent a while studying it with a magnifying glass prior to shooting)

 

I don't believe its possible to 'get' these pieces from the images shown unless you've already carefully studied a number of others in hand first.

 

Reference books are OK if you kind of know what you are looking at to begin with, but tosogu are devilishly hard to photograph well, and even then you're usually compromising something to show something else. On top of that, the pubs often aren't done with the highest quality printing possible, and often don't spring for enough images. Ideally there would be images from many angles (at least a front, back, oblique, and a magnified view (necessary IMHO, but few are willing to spring for the images/book space required)), but often you're lucky to get the front view, only shown 1:1 where most of the detail simply vanishes, etc.

 

There's a lot of things that go into desirability - condition, rarity, quality of workmanship, historical significance, whether you personally like it or not, Whether anybody else likes it or not etc. The latter is important to the cost - what's the saying, "buy what you like, but invest in what others like..."

 

Like Curran, I'm amazed how people spend so little time studying interesting pieces in the meibutsu room, though to be fair they often don't make it easy - you start drawing the wrong kind of attention when you start fawning over the piece with a magnifying glass (if it isn't behind glass to begin with), sometimes won't let you grab an image for your records (thank God most museums are over this silliness now), the lighting often sucks, good luck picking them up and looking at them from different angles, etc. I've long advocated for having tosogu displays with blown up images, a projector on a loop showing enlargements of the pieces, some kind of interactive display allowing access to an enlargeable VR sets or video of the pieces, 3-d images for pieces, or -something- to be displayed along with the pieces to help people "get" them, but I've been unsuccessful to date. You really need to be able to look at these pieces "large" to study them, and...

 

Best,

 

rkg

(Richard George)

 

As I struggle to understand and identify "quality" tosogu, items like these Juyo level pieces have me confused:

http://tsuruginoya.com/mn1_3/b00114.html

http://tsuruginoya.com/mn1_3/f00045.html

 

Similarly, I find it difficult to understand why a piece such as this would be in the $17k price range?

http://tsuruginoya.com/mn1_3/f00042.html

 

Are they Juyo level more for historical significance (very early pieces)? Are they are early pieces by famous schools thus warranting Juyo? Or is there a completely different reason?

 

From an aesthetic perspective, while I find the details fairly well rendered, it doesn't seem to be in the same level of detail or artistic composition of really nice machibori late edo works. Especially the $17k kozuka piece, with the nanako being so well worn down (similar with the ezo menuki wear), the fine details seems to be lost, while the loss of the guilding/inlay would make it easy to think of lower quality work if only casually glanced over on a table full of tosogu. I definitely feel that if there was a table full of tosogu and I was told to pick out the top quality ones, I would have completely missed these three items.

 

Would really appreciate some of the more seasoned members explaining how to discern top works such as these. What is making them so desirable?

 

Thank you very much in advance.

[kaigunair]

Wow, thanks rkg for the info! I've had similar thoughts during club meetings and while walking around the august show. It's a bit much for someone not really interested in selling a lot, but I may just have to put up for a table at the next show in August to bring my stereoscope and perhaps a modest camera/LCD screen set up. Maybe lug some of the reference books too and it's the beginnings of a "tosogu corner" club booth.

 

If you plan to attend the august show, maybe pm me about equipment ideas for such an examination booth (or other items) and perhaps I can try to scrounge around or coordinate an equipment "potluck" among attendees. Maybe this is the year I can help make it happen...

 

Maybe a pocket projector against a back wall would be better than a 20" LCD screen...

[b.hennick]

Lighting at shows is usually very poor. i recommend that you bring lights. LEDs work well.

[Pete Klein]

Junichi -- you'll need to talk with Fred Weissberg about this to make sure it's OK with him (as he organizes the show) if you intend on using a projector. You'll also need a table along the perimeter with access to an electric outlet. An easier method is to purchase a hand magnifier with led bulbs inset around the lens. Portable and convenient.

[rkg]

That's actually a great idea - you know, a clever man (with a pile of inspection equipment) might approach Mr. Weissberg about making it a feature of the show and use one of the rooms they reserve for meibutsu or introductory sword classes when its not being used (I'm guessing they have to rent them for the whole time anyway) - sword/tosogu collectors are in general too cheap to actually pay for anything, but I'm sure if you wanted to let them paw your equipment under your watchful eye (after maybe getting to study their piece in hand-er, uh, show them how to use the gear first), you'd get a steady stream of interesting pieces to look at - Using a projector would make it a decent "group" activity - maybe two stations - one hooked to a projector, and the other for those who don't want to share for whatever reason... Heck, you might even fill the room if you just turned off the crappy overhead lights and provided some decent light sources...

 

Best,

 

rkg

(Richard George)

 

Wow, thanks rkg for the info! I've had similar thoughts during club meetings and while walking around the august show. It's a bit much for someone not really interested in selling a lot, but I may just have to put up for a table at the next show in August to bring my stereoscope and perhaps a modest camera/LCD screen set up. Maybe lug some of the reference books too and it's the beginnings of a "tosogu corner" club booth.

 

If you plan to attend the august show, maybe pm me about equipment ideas for such an examination booth (or other items) and perhaps I can try to scrounge around or coordinate an equipment "potluck" among attendees. Maybe this is the year I can help make it happen...

 

Maybe a pocket projector against a back wall would be better than a 20" LCD screen...

[kaigunair]

Keep the ideas coming (though pm is ok too). I wanted to make sure I have a well throughout and complete plan before buying a table. Fred already has more than enough on his plate so let's keep it to things I can possible do as a table holder and plan from there.

 

Extension chords and maybe some sort of booth covering are all good ideas to consider and easily borrowed. I've seen led lamps at craft stores but might be costly for several; I'm not sure I like battery powered ones if they will see a lot of use but supposedly Costco carries them so I will check.

 

Pm me if you have a portable video microscope or video projector. My LCD monitor is about 22". (The hotel might have a large screen LCD on wheels, but I'm positive there would be a significant charge to use it)...

[Pete Klein]

OK -- if you want a table along the perimeter you need to talk to Fred early as they usually sell first or are already spoken for by regular table holders. Also, you need to ask him if it will be OK to 'project' against the wall as that may bother adjacent table holders. You need to be up front with this or you run the risk of setting up and then not being allowed to proceed. Talk to him at one of the meetings. He's a great guy and easy to work with.

 

PS: adjacent rooms are rented and they are expensive. From past experience they are not available unless you rent/pay for them yourself ($$$$$$$).

PPS: renting equipment from the hotel is prohibitive. Just a projection screen can be a couple hundred dollars, a projector, $400. I've looked into it in the past.

[rkg]

Pete,

 

Smaller spaces are very often rented on a half day/full day basis - I'd still posit its worth an email/phone call to the organizers to see if there's dead time in their room utilization unless its known they've got some other deal with the venue/they're already fully utilizing all the rooms. Again, it would be something else for people to do while at the event/the guy's offering to do it for free, so there's some benefit to them as well...

 

+1 on using the facility's AV equipment.

 

rkg

 

 

PS: adjacent rooms are rented and they are expensive. From past experience they are not available unless you rent/pay for them yourself ($$$$$$$).

PPS: renting equipment from the hotel is prohibitive. Just a projection screen can be a couple hundred dollars, a projector, $400. I've looked into it in the past.

[kaigunair]

I'm a new member but I have been attending the monthly meetings and everyone is very approachable. That being said, I don't want to stir any pots that don't need stirring...

 

Please keep the ideas coming for layout or items of such a tosogu exam booth. I know that the hotel charged the Nthk shinsa team a daily rate of something like $30+ for just a simple easel for a sign. I don't think I will be approaching the hotel to rent anything.

 

I definitely don't want the booth to be a bother to adjacent vendors, but being in the hall vs in adjacent room would be nicer as it would out it in the "thick of things". Guess we'll see how this pans out.

[Darcy]

Kind of late to the thread...

 

You see this in a lot of art. Later period art stands on the shoulders of earlier period art. Technique and knowledge is usually something that builds and builds unless there is some kind of trauma which causes it to be lost. So as you progress through time sophistication tends to increase.

 

We respond very well to sophistication. What was groundbreaking often times in earlier periods and at the capabilities of only the most master of craftsmen, we would expect to be accessible at lower levels in the future.

 

One thing when looking at old art, of whatever the form, you have to kind of go back to that period in your mind and think of these people as pioneers in form, material, and artistic intent.

 

And you have to cut the items in question some slack for the ravages of time. Like we do with things like the pyramids, or the Venus di Milo. Often times with swords and sword goods, the fact that so many have been preserved well means that collectors can get a bit spoiled and turn their nose up at something that is very old and has some condition issues due to age.

 

We can forget that these early works were tools. They were used and abused and saw the field and rain and got dirty and banged against the door. If you buy a new watch after a few weeks of constant wear the thing is all dinged up. If you're married have a look at your wedding ring and it probably looks like it came out of a burial mound.

 

But there is still a tendency to look at a 500 year old menuki or a 1000 year old sword and go, *sniff*, it has *a flaw* hehe.

 

The original statement that these could be looked over on a table goes for swords too. You could put out a Munechika with no words or labels and a lot of people would look over it. Kurokawa san's personal exhibit this year was interesting in that he had no labels on anything and people were going back and forth on what was what. He just let the works speak for themselves for the most part so if you passed over a few kokuho pieces without noticing it then it is what it is .

 

Japanese dealers go through this a lot where a collector is not tolerant of condition issues and for items that lack some sophistication due to early origins, if they are not interesting to the collector then here is this nice shiny new 75cm shinshinto work... not to slang shinshinto work as there are many fine items, but it's just easier to give someone what they want than to educate them.

 

And in all of this I think that is the key. With education and study, the mystery and beauty of these early and rare examples of anything becomes unlocked and the appreciation for them goes way up.

 

I still don't get iron kodogu, get as in "grok" type of understanding, the way true collectors do. I realize that is a limitation of my study and abilities and experience though. I get Ko-Bizen for sure at this point, though I wouldn't have in the beginning.

 

So those I think are good questions that you asked and it's an interesting discussion above. The lights come on eventually and most (though never everything) will be revealed for those who put the time and effort into understanding the mysteries.

[Curran]

As usual, a well worded answer by Darcy.

That 'grok' [Heinlein reference] moment can happen early for some or take quite a while.

[cabowen]

As usual, a well worded answer by Darcy.

That 'grok' [Heinlein reference] moment can happen early for some or take quite a while.

 

Or maybe, never!

 

I think there is yet another dimension to this: cultural differences in taste/appreciation.

 

Many have an affinity for age. There is no doubt that the romance of old is a very appealing feature for many Japanese. Objectively, it has nothing to do with the item itself- it is all "in the head", so to speak. This appreciation of the old (and conversely, a depreciation of the newer) is commonly seen.

 

Also, there is an almost worshiping among most Japanese of "brand names" and pecking order: a favorite pastime is ranking things: 100 best waterfalls, 50 best views of XX, 10 best gardens, etc.

 

And finally, there is a certain art aesthetic popular in Japan wherein the emotion and thought, the inference, a piece generates, is the standard for judgment. Call it zen if you will, but it is an internal aspect, not external, by which most Western art is judged.

 

So add up these cultural differences in how art is appreciated and you can perhaps find a basis for all the love these old, seemingly unsophisticated works, receive.

 

Keep in mind too that we are all entitled to our own tastes. Nothing says you have to like them- but it is helpful to come to grips with why others do....