cabowen Posted January 7, 2014 Report Posted January 7, 2014 Here is a good example of what Satsuma-age means- shortening a sword from the tip, usually done to a broken sword....Of course, once this happens, the blade is considered a relic or artifact and not collectible as a nihon-to... (see below) Quote
Jorgensen Posted January 7, 2014 Report Posted January 7, 2014 Hmmm... it making a really wonderful kitchenknife... Thanks for showing us, very interesting... Quote
tony edmunds Posted January 7, 2014 Report Posted January 7, 2014 Hi Chris Interesting, I wonder if you have ever seen it done where a false kissaki with boshi were fabricated. I've seen false boshi and hamon so I guess it's possible? Regards Tony Quote
Alex A Posted January 7, 2014 Report Posted January 7, 2014 Looks like its had a recent polish so someone sure thinks quite highly of it, maybe not for an elite collection, but has its place. Quote
Tcat Posted January 7, 2014 Report Posted January 7, 2014 Looks like it would be very good for field dressing deer/boar or cleaning medium sized tuna. I want one. Quote
Alex A Posted January 9, 2014 Report Posted January 9, 2014 Im interested in how you would put a value on a blade such as this?, taking into account that it could have been made by a reputable smith and there are folk who wont be put off if the price is right. On another point, im looking at how the sword was re manufactured. Rather than just reshape it the way it was and hope for the best, wisely they squeeze the hamon to an hardened point, a new mini boshi. A page you have all seen, but a bit on counter shortening at the bottom of the page. http://www.ksky.ne.jp/~sumie99/suriage.html Quote
uwe Posted January 9, 2014 Report Posted January 9, 2014 Hi Chris Interesting, I wonder if you have ever seen it done where a false kissaki with boshi were fabricated. I've seen false boshi and hamon so I guess it's possible? Regards Tony Usually, it is not re-hardened or a false hamon (boshi). Satsuma-age embeded (leaves) the original hamon in the new shape of the blade! Uwe Quote
cabowen Posted January 9, 2014 Author Report Posted January 9, 2014 I have been informed that actually not all Satsuma -age blades are considered relics/artifacts and that indeed some were in Daimyo collections in olden times and some have received Hozon papers in modern ones...Here is an example: http://www.tsuruginoya.com/mn1_3/a00259.html Thank you to one of our board members for bringing this to my attention! Quote
John A Stuart Posted January 9, 2014 Report Posted January 9, 2014 They use the term 大磨上 daimigakue, greatly ground upper part, to describe the process as well as 薩摩上 Satsumaage. Some other terms I don't come across; 刺刀 togegatana or togeto, dagger; 小首刀 kokubito, little neck sword. Interesting. John Quote
Marius Posted January 9, 2014 Report Posted January 9, 2014 http://www.tsuruginoya.com/mn1_3/a00259.html but this one seems to have a boshi? I even see a turn back... Not sure if this sword qualifies as Satsuma-age? Quote
John A Stuart Posted January 9, 2014 Report Posted January 9, 2014 The mune tapers downwards to meet the original hamon. Like a drop point. John Quote
Marius Posted January 9, 2014 Report Posted January 9, 2014 I see. That would be a good definition of Satsuma-age. Thank you John :-) Quote
Brian Posted January 9, 2014 Report Posted January 9, 2014 On the one that Chris originally posted, the new shaping has now given the blade a kissaki with hamon. Therefore the tip is hardened although it has lost the shape. Unconventional shape maybe, but not at risk of point damage like unhardened ones are. So in my eyes, it isn't fatally flawed as is..it is still functional. It may not have a turnback..but neither do some unaltered swords. So maybe ugly to some..less functional to others..it is a viable sword with an intact hamon. Would work to pierce clothing and light armour...but the slashing ability is what is reduced. Interesting case study. Brian Quote
Marius Posted January 9, 2014 Report Posted January 9, 2014 What about this one? It is a naginata naoshi, and I deliberately post part of the oshigata only... This looks very much like the tsuruginoya.com wakizashi... Very pointed, indeed... Quote
Jean Posted January 9, 2014 Report Posted January 9, 2014 Mariusz, The den Katayama is papered so no need to speculate on the boshi as in Chris'example. Now what I would like to have a clear definition of what is Satsuma age, what does it mean. Quote
cabowen Posted January 9, 2014 Author Report Posted January 9, 2014 Jean- It means a blade that has been shortened from the tip end. Quote
Jean Posted January 9, 2014 Report Posted January 9, 2014 Thanks, Chris. Now, will all the naginata naoshi be included in Satsuma age? Why is it called Satsuma age? Since when this word has been used/created and under which occasion? Satsuma rebellion? 1 Quote
cabowen Posted January 9, 2014 Author Report Posted January 9, 2014 It is generally only used on blades that have been broken and reshaped for use. Naginata blades that are reshaped into naginata-naoshi are considered differently as my understanding of the term is that it applies only to katana/wakizashi and not naginata. No idea when it came into being...I have always thought it had a bit of a negative connotation but seeing as there are some Hozon blades that are thought to be Satsuma-age, perhaps it isn't as negative as I have assumed... Quote
Jean Posted January 9, 2014 Report Posted January 9, 2014 I begin to understand, nothing to do with the blades shown by Mariusz, but I will be curious to see a papered Satsuma age blade to know to what extent a kissakiless/boshiless reshaped blade can be papered. Quote
cabowen Posted January 9, 2014 Author Report Posted January 9, 2014 Please see the example in the link I posted. They do have a boshi if they are reshaped properly. Quote
John A Stuart Posted January 9, 2014 Report Posted January 9, 2014 This passage in the text of the example Chris posted describes it well; 薩摩上げ（さつまあげ）｣の文字通りに、日本列島を太刀に例えれば最南端の薩摩が切っ先に相当する。 Satsumaage literally corresponds to the analogy of the tip of the sword resembling the southern-most part of the Satsuma archipelago. 切っ先の方を棟側から斜めに切り落とし、刃側を棟の方に打ち曲げて切っ先を作るので帽子は必ず焼詰めとなる。 The boshi is made by cutting from the mune side towards the hamon making a tip where the hamon bends towards the mune. Please forgive my poor attempt to make it sound sensible. John Quote
Jean Posted January 9, 2014 Report Posted January 9, 2014 Thanks for the translation John, now is the kaeri coming from a polishing effect? Quote
cabowen Posted January 9, 2014 Author Report Posted January 9, 2014 There would be no kaeri; anything resembling one is due to polishing. Quote
Dr Fox Posted January 10, 2014 Report Posted January 10, 2014 Just wondering?? As a broken blade, the inner core would be exposed! What would be done to regain a hardened tip, and thus give a stabbing hardened point? Quote
John A Stuart Posted January 10, 2014 Report Posted January 10, 2014 I suspect that the mune where it is ground down to the hamon would show a demarcation somewhere. I do not know how visible it would be after polishing. The new tip should be hardened throughout as it is made entirely from the old ha. Perhaps some swords would not be a good candidate. John Quote
Darcy Posted January 13, 2014 Report Posted January 13, 2014 There are a few funky looking Juyo like this. Quote
Roland Posted January 17, 2014 Report Posted January 17, 2014 That's what the Kashima sisters are showing on their suriage subpage here: http://www.ksky.ne.jp/~sumie99/suriage.html (just scroll down!)... Quote
Darcy Posted January 18, 2014 Report Posted January 18, 2014 Very good link there. Nice to learn something new. Quote
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