Why would a quality tsuba not be signed?

[Ken-Hawaii]

I bought a beautiful Mino-Goto tsuba from a fellow member. It's in pristine shape, but is mumei. Why would a beautiful tsuba that was obviously someone's masterpiece not be signed?

 

Ken

[John A Stuart]

Many Mino kodougu are not signed and that is most common. When they are and are legitimate they usually have a premium price. A Mino, koMino actually, kogai that I contemplated at the DTI last year was over 2 million yen, of utmost quality and not signed. John

[Ken-Hawaii]

Okay, I hear you, John, but I'm wondering WHY that's the standard for Mino or any other kodogu? I can understand with a blade why a smith would choose not to sign it, but a tsuba?

 

Ken

[Jean]

Ken,

 

Probably because most of them were manufactured in workshops.

 

The fact that a tsuba is signed is not necessarily a sign of quality .... Mass product Soten...Echizen kinai.'....

[Pete Klein]

Ken -- the concept of naming kodogu was not known until the advent of the Nobuie school during the Momoyama period. None of the Goto masters signed their works until around 1600, and even then it wasn't customary. It just wasn't done. After 1600 it gradually increased until practically everything was signed, the exception being work done for the daimyo, which still usually were not. The machibori artists tended to sign all of their works.

[Ken-Hawaii]

Jean, thanks for your input. The quality of my tsuba is such that I'm fairly certain it wasn't made in a workshop, per se.

 

Pete, that's exactly the type of information I was looking for! I'm a long way from being a kodogu expert, & as I slowly learn the ropes, it's this type of input that I find so valuable on NMB.

 

Thanks to you both.

 

Ken

[Pete Klein]

Any time mate.

[Barrie B]

Ken,

Would it be possible to see some photos please..?

 

Thank you.

 

Barrie B.

[Ken-Hawaii]

No problem, Barrie. I should have thought of doing that.

 

 

 

 

 

It's a nice Mino-Goto tsuba, 7.3 X 6.8 cm, and about 5 cm thick, although the mimi's carvings are just over 6 cm. It's a shakudo nanako moku-gata tsuba, mumei, with a motif of praying mantis, crickets, and autumn flowers. I really like the contrast of the shakudo against the gold, silver, and copper elements, and the mimi is fully inlaid with the motif and nanako.

 

By far the centerpiece of my kodogu collection!

 

Ken

[Barrie B]

Ken,

 

Yes; very nice.. Well done. Thank you for taking the trouble to post pictures…

 

Barrie.

[John A Stuart]

These tsuba are late Edo period and of varying quality. They can not take heavy abuse. The price of these has skyrocketed lately. I got one for under a thousand, there is one for sale of this better quality more Goto style and less Mino-bori, the same group I think, right now for just under 3000 pounds. Some others are in the $2000 range. I am not sure, but, there was a resurgence in demand for this style and this was filled by tsubako in Edo. This is just my opinion, however, I believe the market was in the eastern capital where merchants gathered and displayed their finery. I find these desirable for certain koshirae. John.

BTW, Is this tsuba colour corrected or is that the true colour of the shakudo? Mine is quite dark, but, I have some Mino-bori kodougu that are more of the shade yours display. J

[Ken-Hawaii]

My tsuba is indeed color-corrected, John - that's exactly the way it looks in hand. The nanako area is fairly dark, but the contrast with the shakudo makes it look lighter.

 

Ken

[kaigunair]

Hi Ken,

While it is a nice tsuba indeed, I think your posted example may fall into the possible "workshop" category, which would make being unsigned fairly typical of this type. It may not be the best representative of the "quality but unsigned" which was the original title of the thread. I may be completely off, as I have not studied in depth mino works like this, but the upper quality examples seem to get the tiny tiny details in in a much sharper way. (note: I was looking for an example with insects in it, but have only located "nicer" ones with the flora design)

 

http://blogimg.goo.ne.jp/user_image/61/39/600187589665c7849deeb774dbdbb04e.jpg

http://media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/736x/3c/f8/e4/3cf8e4bb26d341debc7bfc0d3f5092ac.jpg

Here's one that isn't as nice as the one above, but has insect themes:(couldn't find what it sold for)

http://www.finesword.co.jp/sale/kodougu/htm/1051_2000/1351_1400/1375/k1375_o.jpg

 

I'll try to pull open the goto books this week to see if the later gens. have similar examples. I guess for "quality", I would expect sharper details in the rendering of the insects, including the gold inlay, as well even more fineness of the nanako.

 

( I really don't mean to be contrary for contrary's sake; I myself am trying to understand what separates the top quality tosogu from good or ok. Am totally open to correction (or flaming), either of which helps the learning process )

 

regards.

[John A Stuart]

Although there was an early connection with Goto Yujo, in fact a two way influence; he learned the trade originally in Mino from kanagushi and then after improving his art in Kyoto returned to Mino where he influenced the machibori artists there; Mino-bori is quite seperate from what is Goto or even wakiGoto as we know it. I use the term Mino-Goto as convention, but, really, although you can see the influence in Mino-bori of the Goto families, it is not correct. John

[kaigunair]

Thanks John. My mistake in terms....I meant to say I was thinking of looking into my goto ref books for their rendition of Mino-bori works (hence, looking at later generations of goto; or maybe the kyo-goto book would be a more likely candidate for mino-bori style works).

 

The intention was to photo for the thread a top quality mino-bori style tsuba to compare/contrast. I am still alittle foggy about where current thought is on what tradition the 1st goto master(s) came from, but that is a different thread.

 

Apologies and I appreciate the correction!

[christianmalterre]

just did read this here...

mine comment would be in regard of high class Iron Tsuba here...

 

learn so to distinguish the iron of an Tsuba itself!

There are hundreds of Tsuba signed...most of them do show what us old hares would call "factory plate" or "factory iron"...

(maybe some would ben called nice,decorative ect..all but certainly not worth so to keep,as you won´t get your´s investment back)(most probably-you already did pay more than it´s value?)

 

 

There are hundreds of Tsuba unsigned...some very rare of them are "Top" "Prime" "the very Best Of you can ever get"-here,too...learn to distinguish between factory iron and well forged iron.

learn to make Kantei(on Tsuba)!

 

I rarely have seen an top class Iron Tsuba with an fake signature....if you do know in which tradition an artist did forge...you also can distinguish it´s mei.

 

In Edo times it was partially custom so to not sign Tsuba which were ordered directly in custom order for Imperial family and Highest Daimyo family and Priests...it had ben an affront! otherwise...

Of course,please do Note-there are exceptions!-such this is no general "rule" per se...

You have to know the school and artist and the time such occured customary here....(reason we do let paper some Tsuba such to get an second statement by an expert/organisation)

 

Christian

[Brian]

There are many Mino-bori tsuba out there, and as far as general construction goes, I think this one is well above average. A nice one. You can always get much better..but then you pay 5 times the price. I think you did well, and avoided the average low class ones.

 

Brian