Stamped number tsubas

[peterd]

Stamped number tsubas at Bateman Auctioneers England.

Nice tsubas would they paper?

How much do you think this devalues and could this be removed.

 

Many thanks

Pete

[ROKUJURO]

Stamped number TSUBA at Bateman Auctioneers England. Nice TSUBA, would they paper?

How much do you think this devalues and could this be removed?.....

Photos, Peter? Where are the stamps on the TSUBA, how deep are they?

[Pete Klein]

http://www.batemans.com/current_results ... mit=Search

 

Questionable if they would even be considered tsuba. More like export pieces.

[peterd]

Hard to tell on my phone but lot 215 looked genuine tsuba. Not nessessarily only export.

 

Pete

[Brian]

Late Meiji export yes. But some good nanako on 1 of them..maybe 2. At least one of those looks quite nice.

But the stamped numbers from a time gone by where collectors cataloged them this way....

No..not easy to remove, and would affect value imho.

 

Brian

[kaigunair]

Wish they showed pics of the back. Out of the bunch, I like 217 the best.

 

Questionable if they would even be considered tsuba. More like export pieces.

 

An interesting concept which I struggle to grasp, mostly in relation to value. I wonder how many Kano Natsuo pieces could be considered "tsuba" using the same criteria, and what impact it would have on the value and desirability of a Natsuo "tsuba-shaped" item. Since I've been mainly an edo or later period kinko focused collector, it is question I've thought about alot - collect based on functionality/historical significance & use or collect based on aesthetics. When the two meet, desirability (and prices) skyrocket, but in general, the higher value tsuba pieces seem to fall in the latter than the former.

 

Its interesting that there isn't similar comments made on other tosogu pieces, like f/k, menuki, kojiri, even saya decoration. In battle, how would would, say, goto school soft metal menuki or saya parts stand up to usage and environmental conditions over prolonged periods of warfare, let alone their aesthetic details. If such items were never meant for such "actual" use (or perhaps never meant to be mounted in the first place, i.e. given as high level gifts), just like export tsuba, then does that make them any less real tosogu?

 

On the flip side, perhaps it is because such items were never supposed to be used in real warfare, to be only worn by high level samurai or daimyo as symbols of wealth and prestige, that these items are desirable. In either case, with regard to kinko works, it does seem that market value and collector desirability does not seem to be effected in the least by functionality. Therefore, since only aesthetics remains, if this is the main driver of value/desirability, doesn't it follow that whether a tsuba was ever or could ever actually be mounted is an irrelevant concept?

 

At the very least, when I ask such questions, I do see why many nihonto collectors stateside lean toward collections of iron tsubas; its a much easier connection to make with "real samurai" usage, while edo kinko and later are more akin to paintings and sculptures - less "warrior" and more "fu-fu" high brow fluff. I wonder if in Japan past, there was different perspective following teachings like "the brush and sword in one accord". If so, how much of that was reshaped or distorted during the meiji period and the need to convince the populace that the new order of Japan was better than the past...

[peterd]

Here are the fronts and backs of three of the Tsubas. Unfortunately, 217 does not have a picture of the back.

 

Kindest regards,

 

Pete

[Thierry BERNARD]

Unfortunately, 217 does not have a picture of the back.

imho the best!

[Justin]

Made for the export market. Look at the nakago-ana in comparison to the seppa dai in number two. A little off centre lol.

[kaigunair]

Thanks for the pics Peter!

If I had not been so burned by Bonhams auctions and overseas shipping charges, I'd definitely go for 217.

 

Justin - good eye's and call on the offsetting of the nakago on the noh mask tsuba.

 

I guess I can understand if "export tsuba" is akin to the hamamono concept of low quality mass produced tsuba; I think 217 falls outside this, and perhaps 214 (I just realized the theme of the 214 tsuba is probably that of the night parade theme from my rinsendo kozuka!).

 

I can't tell if 214 just looks like a hamamono piece because of a bad cleaning job that has left some oxidation "halo-ing" around the figure, or if the quality of the artwork is low. I think the photo is only just good enough to be bad...really can't make out the details to determine if its due to poor focusing or workmanship. I see enough details in some of the monsters to think that it might be nice work. Haven't researched the signature at all.

 

Thoughts on 216: need higher resolution pics! I don't like the tiger, and some of the nanako appears off, but can't really tell. But the bamboo and figures look well done. So, withholding judgment on this one.

 

I guess I still think they are all tsubas, even if never intended for mounting....

 

[Jean]

I guess I still think they are all tsubas, even if never intended for mounting....

 

 

Agreed, I remember seeing the like on Nihonto.com website and mind the price....

[kaigunair]

Out of the lot, I think this one may go over its pre-auction estimate:

[kaigunair]

Found some bigger pics:

 

216 (people in bamboo grove) appears to be a big name, so red flags for gimie, but the nanako looks pretty good to me.

 

215 the nakago offset might be alittle exaggerated due to the camera angle; I think the Noh masks were high enough above the surface and at differing heights, causing the tsuba not to be flat when the backside was being photo'd....

 

Any changed opinions? :D

[Justin]

Look at the faces. You can tell the quality (or lack of) from the faces.

[kaigunair]

Look at the faces. You can tell the quality (or lack of) from the faces.

 

Perhaps, but if its faces alone, then the goto school would definitely fall a few many rungs down the quality scale IMHO...

 

(BTW, very enjoyable website and nice collection of tosogu! )

[peterd]

Just an update on these Tsubas.

 

I went to the auction today and saw them in hand. I have to say that they were much better quality than can be seen in these pictures and the price reflects this.

 

Junichi, you were correct. This went for three times the top estimate. That was hammer price, not including buyers premium.

 

Lot 214 went for £2400.

 

Lot 215 went for £820.

 

Lot 216 went for £2300.

 

Lot 217 went for £3600.

 

I would like to mention that lots 216 and 217 were of the highest quality and the photos really do not do them justice.

 

Kindest regards,

 

Pete

[Justin]

Wow. That's big money. I guess the numbers stamped into the plate don't affect value too much. Was there any provenance? If you could link the numbers to a museum or big time collector then they might actually enhance the value.

[peterd]

Unfortunately not.

 

Being only four Tsubas and lot number 217 being stamped with 338, I assume they must be a tiny part from an originally huge collection.

 

Kindest regards,

 

Pete

[kaigunair]

Thanks so much for the update! Wow!

 

Given how crazy auctions can get, not necessarily the best indicator of whether tsubas were of good quality. Glad you got to see them in hand and could attest to their quality. I had a hunch the pics were making them look worse... Did they sell to inhouse bidders or internet?

[peterd]

I think at least a couple went to the USA, not sure should have paid more attention but was bidding (very nerve racking).

Was going to bid on lot 217 but flew way above estimate.

 

Regards Pete