Tsuba base iron

[seattle1]

Hello:

Grev, check for a PM

Arnold F.

[ROKUJURO]

.....Construction of a tsuba on the other hand was knowledge that was passed down from teacher to student and were much more guarded secrets that were not shared with the outside world. It was an even smaller base of people that knew how to construct the tsuba. Now that there is more sophistication and obviously there are some technical people that have more understanding of how metals work or respond to various treatments there is more opportunity to write down those processes. I bet even many metal workers in the past couldn't explain why something happened but they knew the result of an action.....

 

The student would learn what that looked like and the good ones could replicate it, the unskilled students struggled with it or a mistake occurred when they got this wrong....... So the knowledge available to us can provide more insight on a technical level. But this information was not written down. It also didn't necessarily hinder the study of the art.....

Ken,

 

you are perfectly right. I did not want to express that forging knowledge is essential for aesthetic studies or evaluation of an arts object. But as special technical knowledge is available now (and where I have concentrated on) I did not want to leave it unsaid. It is my personal approach to a better understanding of TSUBA, that is all. As more knowledge is on the table, I think that it should be allowed to say that some older information is not at today's level, even if the respective authors absolutely have their merits in their fields of interest.

 

Interesting enough, there is a parallel in ceramics to what you say. When Bernard Leach, a famous British potter, asked his Japanese teacher, KANJIRO KAWAII, about the chemical composition of ceramic glazes, the latter did not understand the question. He replied: 'If you do it the same way I have done it all my life, you will get the same results.'

 

But we in the West are obviously different, and asking questions can lead to insights that can replace older ones.

 

There is still another point I want to shed light on. In Japan, arts and crafts were never far away from each other, so I think we should not separate these ways too much by saying: I am only interested in the artistic facts of a TSUBA and I dont care how it was made. That would, at least in my understanding, not do justice to the subject.

[Thierry BERNARD]

Hi Jean

 

very sure,forging techniques knowledge is interesting, but in some cases this can lead you to a misinterpretation of the text, for example when you say

 

Then Haynes writes: ....the plate can be folded, a single time after the forging process.....This is not correct either as the folding and welding is a part of the forging process.

 

in this sentence you forgot an important word : after

[christianmalterre]

well?

again Mr.Haynes repeated things he better had asked an metallurgue before...

Sorry!

 

Christian

[christianmalterre]

Edit:

 

me do see Mr.Haynes as one of the very most forerunners and progressive enthousiasts we do actually have indeed!

It´s just....in metallurgy someone had done better his thumbs on what is written down ...)

 

2 cents!

 

Christian

[ROKUJURO]

in this sentence you forgot an important word : after

 

Pardon, Thierry,

 

I am a bit slow today and don't get what you want to express. I was only citing Haynes, and I wanted to explain that folding cannot be done after forging.

[Lance]

Maybe the folding mentioned "after" the plate refers to forging to a certain level: driving out impurities, homogenizing carbon content, etc. when reaching that desired point the plate was folded a final time, intentionally leaving the last fold slightly visible as an artistic touch or trademark of sorts for a particular smith or school?

 

Regards,

Lance

[ROKUJURO]

Lance,

 

thank you! I think I understand now, what could have been meant. After refining the steel, that last fold has also to be done at welding temperature so maybe I missed his idea a little.

[Andi B.]

Hello,

I want to share a picture of a "mammoth ivory" tsuba rim: left is the mammoth ivory, right is the tsuba rim looking similiar...

 

I have no experience with corroded tsuba base iron or steel so is this simply unwanted corrosion or in some way intended by the maker?

Generally I find it a bit difficult to distinguish "naturally" rusted and corroded surfaces from wanted surface and patina treatment by the artists (because it always looks very "natural")...

[Mantis dude]

HI Andi,

 

I am going to give you answer that I hate to get but it is the only way I know how to give it. First off I will state that I am not an expert in this topic. What I believe you are looking for is called wabi sabi- a stylistic way the Japanese incorporate their art that conveys a sense of age and use. It is a feeling given off by an art object so there isn't a formula. What it takes is developing your eye for it. That takes time viewing pieces and getting a sense. There is a balance and naturalistic look that some pieces have while others look clunky, out of balance and the design doesn't give that same feeling. One simple thing to look for is red rust. Red rust is active rust and is a bad thing. It means that the piece's patina is not "in control", the metal is still rusting and it can't be in balance. When you become familiar with schools you will also notice some schools use the technique and some don't. I am sure more will chime in but this is one of those topics where it just takes time. A lot of tsuba appreciation is that it takes time to view pieces, it helps gain insight into what makes a design good vs bad. In the Haynes auction catalogs, in the beginning intro there was a repeat of some famous writings by Dr. Torigoyes book "Tsuba Geijutsu Ko"(a treatise on the Aesthetic of Tsuba) and I believe it has been reprinted in part in other books or newsletters- I got up and looked up the name of the book. Every time I read it I have a better understanding as I view more tsuba. So I gave an answer that doesn't really answer your question but still I think it has to be said as much as I hate to say it. I am sure others can critique a specific tsuba better but don't get discouraged just understand it isn't simply memorizing an answer. Best of luck.

[kissakai]

I had a PM about this post to say it had been forwarded to Mr Robert Haynes for his comments. I was amazed to receive a call today from Mr Haynes especially as it was from the US to the UK. Bob basically stated that it is difficult to assess tsuba using only photos but if I wanted to send him any questions or photos he would be happy to give his opinions. He is working on another book at the moment and said he would let me have some details.

I need to say Mr Haynes was an absolute gentleman more than happy to speak and help a novice like me. He is 84 years old and in very good health and a joy to talk to.

I will be writing to him and hopefully this will help me with my collection

 

 

Grev UK

[Pete Klein]

Just n case someone is interested in the book Tsuba Geijutsuko, Grey has a copy available: http://www.japaneseswordbooksandtsuba.c ... ranslation

 

Also, here is a link to a basic explanation of Japanese aesthetics: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Japanese_aesthetics

 

BTW, it is my understanding that wabi-sabi is actually a western combination of two different Japanese terms. It is more appropriate to use them separately, as in 'Wabi Cha', Rikyu's concept of tea preparation. To understand Momoyama high end samurai culture you need to understand wabi cha.

[John A Stuart]

Speaking of 'tea', it is really important to realise just how much of the tea ceremony 'chanoyu' is directed to the little nuances, not just economy of motion and technique, but, the art and appreciation of it in every little piece. Every facet of Japanese art and craft can be found within it, from textiles through to painting, lacquer work, pottery, cuisine, charcoal making, kyo, metal work even to Nihonto in cases. Note here, the Chato. If you know tea you are on the way to knowing it all. John

[Steve Waszak]

Pete's post above, in particular his contention that "to understand Momoyama high-end samurai culture you need to understand wabi cha" is right on the money. I couldn't agree more. I might extend this to the "Oribe Tea" immediately following Rikyu in the 1590s as well. The Tea sensibility suffusing buke culture in the Momoyama Period is intimately connected to the aesthetics of high-level tsuba from that time and extending well into the 17th century, particularly in Owari and Higo. I firmly believe that attempting to study and appreciate iron tsuba from this period without also studying Tea and its aesthetics is nearly pointless.

 

Cheers,

 

Steve

[cabowen]

You can say this about Japanese swords and fitting in general. The more you study the language, history, culture, metallurgy. and society, the deeper your understanding. Swords and fittings didn't exist in a vacuum- they reflect the culture that created them. One would do well to dig both deeply and broadly. As I have said, you would be surprised how much you could learn about fittings and swords by spending an hour in a Japanese 7-11 convenience store...

[Steve Waszak]

Exactly right. :D I'm always amazed at how relatively rarely such broader and deeper cultural connections are investigated with regard to nihonto and tosogu study.

 

Cheers,

 

Steve

[Ford Hallam]

If anyone's interested to see and read what real tamahagane processing looks like you may enjoy a thread I have going on my forum where myself and Taro Asano are working together to better understand the material in relation to tsuba.

 

Here's a link

 

It's probably worth pointing out that this sort of research can't be done from an armchair

[Marius]

Ford,

 

thanks for this highly interesting info The pictures are excellent.

 

I must say, I am also in anticipation of the finished tsuba...

[Henry Wilson]

you would be surprised how much you could learn about fittings and swords by spending an hour in a Japanese 7-11 convenience store...

 

I sure would. Apart from the chance of finding a magazine on samurai culture or something along those lines, I can't think of anything i could have learnt about fittings and swords the last time I bought a nikuman.

[cabowen]

Start with the advertising on packages and you will find mon and other artwork (stylized plants and flowers, etc.) that also has relevance to the decoration and motifs used on swords.

 

Then have a look at some of the foods- depending on what time of year you are there, you might find osechi type items (New Year's foods), bento boxes, maybe vegetables like daikon, hasu, or fruit like kaki, etc., again, items that appear on fittings and in lacquer work. Look at a nashi for an understanding of nashiji hada, or have a look at some hijiki for a similar insight into hijiki hada. Seeing the real items will give one a much deeper understanding of what these items actually look, feel, and taste like.

 

Look at the decorations- again, depending on what time of year you are there, you might see kadomatsu, displays, etc. Sometimes you will find interesting displays in the sake and rice areas as well that have geographical info, photos of the areas, etc. All of this helps put a "face" to "Bizen" or the like. Do you know what a koku of rice actually looks like (about 150 kilos)?

 

Learn how to tie an interesting knot or wrap a furoshiki around a sword or tsuba by watching the help during ochugen/oseibo.

 

Want to learn some geography? Ask to send a package via takyubin and have a look at the fee map. Want an insight? Chat up the counter people by asking them if people in Osaka are different from those in Tokyo while looking at the map.

 

It's a microcosm, a laboratory. It's about context and deepening one's understanding. There is plenty of it there, if you are observant and thinking about things other than your stomach :lol: . ”７−１１、．良い気分”

[Steve Waszak]

Many thanks, Ford, for these very interesting photos and descriptions of the process. Looking forward to seeing more...

 

Cheers,

 

Steve

[Brian]

Loving that thread Ford, will keep following it.

 

Brian

[Ford Hallam]

thanks chaps, good to know not everyone is trapped in convenience stores

 

[Henry Wilson]

Thank you very much Chris for pointing certain things out. One example that you mention, nashiji hada. The first time I came across this term in a sword book, I took a Japanese pear from the fruit basket and all became clear.

 

What you are referring to is same for all such shops in any country I suppose. It is a reflection of the culture. I would call them cultural freeways as opposed to laboratories, but that is just me.

 

Your post brings me back to something I posted a few days ago. How many members are able to read or talk their way around a conbini? Who would be able to ask for some fried chicken, never mind send an item by takyubin or talk to the staff? I suspect not that many.

 

Not wanting to hijack this thread, have a look at my post at the end of this thread if interested:

viewtopic.php?f=3&t=17852&start=15

 

Anyway, cup noodles will never be the same again!

 

And thanks Ford for the highly interesting info.

[cabowen]

It is a reflection of the culture.

 

That is precisely my point...you can't really reach below the surface when it comes to Japanese swords without also immersing yourself in the culture, since they are but a reflection of it....

 

What you might pick up about Japanese swords hanging out at the 7-11 is of course dependent on your powers of observation as well as your language skills. I had a collector friend visit once and he spoke no Japanese; during a visit to my corner 7-11 he spotted a display of rice. This is where he realized exactly what a koku of rice is- as I mentioned. He picked this up visually.

 

Not everyone has the good fortune to spend time in Japan...There are other ways to learn about the culture, language, history, etc. Perhaps not as effective, but still worthwhile pursuing.

 

Of course what you make of any hobby is a personal choice. Not everyone has the time and opportunity to really dive in. Clearly this board is a great first step and wonderful resource for those looking to further their knowledge.