What is this?

[Adrian]

http://www.travelblog.org/Photos/6601093

 

I tknow odachi were supposed to be at least 3 shaku long but this seems waaay past that.

 

I'm wondering what this could be? Doesn't look like it ever had any practical purpose, unless the guy looking at it is a very short midget.

 

For comparison, a sword said to have belonged to Frisian pirate/freedom fighter Grutte Pier (a guy said to have been 7' tall - about the height of a tall basketball center of these days) is preserved at Leeuwarden. http://www.swordforum.com/forums/showth ... rutte-Pier

 

It is 2.13m long (exactly the claimed height of Grutte Pier) and weights 6.6kg. Obviously for a guy who was probably well above 2m tall (7' may be an exaggeration but not by much, as all sources describe him as being of superhuman height and strength) such a sword made sense back in the days when zweihänder swords were in use.

 

However the nihonto in this pic looks even longer when mounted and I doubt that in medieval Japan you could find people who were 2+ meters tall and well built.

[Ken-Hawaii]

Still called an odachi. But just for people with reeeeaaaaaaaally long arms!

 

Ken

[Adrian]

Ken, thanks for the answer. I added a comparison with a zweihänder sword of similar length that belonged to a known historical figure.

 

Somehow I cannot imagine that Japanese Grutte Pier/Pier Gerlofs Donia :D

 

And even if the sword was used only from horseback, I think it's still too heavy for being effectively used in combat by a Japanese samurai.

 

Perhaps a ceremonial piece of some sort?

[Ken-Hawaii]

Almost certainly a temple donation, Adrian. Check out http://www.militaria.co.za/nmb/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=17686 for more info.

 

Ken

[Adrian]

Thank you for the link Ken. It makes things even more interesting, since the sword we are discussing here is obviously the 4th sword on Jussi's topic.

 

According to his identification, this is

 

太郎太刀 - Taroutachi (It is described being the sword Makara Naotaka used in 1570 at battle of Anegawa)

Blade length: 220 cm

Weight: 4,5 kg

 

The given blade lenght is consistent with my estimation (as being longer then Grutte Pier's sword). And if the legend surrounding it is correct, it was actually used in battle (amazing feat for a Japanese XVIth century warrior, to wield a 4.5 kg blade of this length)

[Ken-Hawaii]

Having trained in iaido for several decades, I'm rather pessimistic about odachi being used in actual battles. My practice blade is rather long (hacho just under 30 inches), & at 5'10", I could probably have used it in battle, but would much rather use a shorter blade for practical reasons. There are ryuha that do train with odachi, & I can see one-on-one fights, but once you've swung an odachi, getting it back to a defensive kamae will not be a quick process. And in the heat of battle, that's almost certain death.

 

I'm sure we'll hear otherwise from our members.

 

Ken

[John A Stuart]

I doubt it too, except wielded by two men to unhorse riders. Kageryu uses large swords to cut through shoji and allow entry into houses. John

[Ken-Hawaii]

Never studied Kage-ryu, John, but why would you need an odachi to cut through shoji? My cats manage to slice ours up with great ease. Or is that Neko-ryu?

 

Ken

[estcrh]

Not all odachi were as over sized as the ones that get the most attention.

 

[Adrian]

"Normal" odachi are clearly usable even by shorter guys like the average Japanese samurai.

 

About Ken's affirmation, I think that if actually used in battle, these very long odachi were used for very specific purposes. Same as the German zweihänder/bidenhänder which was used by specialist Landsknecht against tight pike formations.

[Mark Green]

I would say it is very unlikely that sword was used in battle. Unless it was just taken to one, to say it had been there.

 

Maybe for removing heads after the battle.

 

Shrine swords were meant to be used by Gods. You would sure be one, if you could play with that blade for more then one hit.

I suppose, if you were lucky enough to chop some guys horse in half as it was running you down, it would be a great moral booster/killer.

 

Mark

[Eric H]

An interesting coincidence is the fact that oversized swords were in use in Japan in the Muromachi period as well in Europe in the Late Middle Ages.

The sword called „Zweihänder“ (two-handed sword) was worn on the back, as the illustration (etching by Daniel Hopfer ca.1470-1536) shows, and was used in battle by foot soldiers (Landsknechte). The blade-lengths of these swords varied from 80 cm to 125 cm and the handles until 40 cm.

 

On September 15, I visited the Castle of Grandson. The oversized sword with the wavy blade is a "Zweihänder", a two-handed sword...wielding requires two hands.

 

Eric

[Stephen]

Just rewatched Hara Kiri ...remember the big red armor with long white hair, it was overly big for a man, but had a large swrod beside it...maybe?

 

Ichimei (2:00)

Hara-Kiri: Death of a Samurai (2011)

 

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt1728196/

 

PS if you have not seen the movie dont watch this as its the ending lol

[Jussi Ekholm]

The Zweihänder comparison is a good one, that's how I feel too. (Both are only replicas but based on authentic examples, I believe the measurements for Hanwei Odachi are taken from Rin Tomomitsu)

 

 

Overall lengths of those 2 are Zweihänder=160,7cm Odachi=171,5cm. Zweihänder weighs 2675 grams and Odachi weighs 2575 grams. Both of these are massive swords. To put some scale to Taroutachi, just the blade length of it is 50cm's more to the overall length of this odachi. So it will be ridiculously long.

 

Yamanaka states in his Newsletters in regards Nambokucho and Odachi

 

This is the period in which strife was constant and there are records which list blades up in the length of 4 shaku, 5 shaku and some as long as 7 shaku actually being used, some of which can be seen in temples and shrines in sections of Japan.

 

One such blade is by Bizen Osafune Tomomitsu (Rin Tomomitsu) in the Nikko Futaara Shrine which the blade measures 49,5 inches long. There are few blades in records which measured up to 8 shaku and whether these were in actual use or not is a bit of a question, though old records tell that they were used by certain warriors.

 

The average length of the blades was about 3 shaku 5 sun (c.106 cm) and this itself is long enough.

 

There are lots of legends around swords in Japan, as well as rest of the world.

 

This is a part of Anegawa battle screen, and Makara Naotaka wields his great sword Tarou.

 

 

Some sources state that Makara Naotaka has been a man of massive stature. Where an average man of this period was about 160cm he has been possibly said to be 195cm in height (however I do not know how valid this estimate of his height is). However he was a Commander, so his size may have been exaggerated. And I am not sure how much actual battling commanders did during that time.

 

One old guide line for Odachi selection is in a book published during Tenbun - Eiroku. The total length was usually the measurement of the wearer under the ear. Odachi are being described as being used particulary by the rear guard Zuigo. Usual term nowdays is Shingari. Was this rear guard an elite troop that guarded commanders?

 

One picture from Gioku Seki Zashi is listed as attitudes of ashigaru and wakato at the battle of Ichinotani. In this picture Wakato (servant) is described riding horseback on his masters secondary horse carrying seoi-dachi on his back.

 

Also 元弘 Genko 1331 and 建武 Kemmu 1334 are listed being as a kind of starting point after which odachi became more popular.

 

There are plenty of descriptions of old famous warriors and their sword lengths listed.

 

Just for giggles the Odachi replica in my pic is bit below my ear. So a samurai of c. 185 cm who used odachi could by that Muromachi period guideline have used a sword c. 170 cm in total length.

[Andrew S]

I seem to recall some 20+ years ago seeing the same sword in the Atsuta Shrine. I think there was some information about such swords being used by pairs or teams of three of unmounted soldiers to take out cavalry. (Of course, my Japanese wasn't as good then, and it was a long time ago.)

[Ken-Hawaii]

So a samurai of c. 185 cm who used odachi could by that Muromachi period guideline have used a sword c. 170 cm in total length.

 

Once again, just because a Samurai could use an odachi doesn't mean that he should use one. Those of us who train in iaido are well aware of the fact that the length of a blade has very little to do with how well you can use it in CQB (close-quarters battle). Battle waza are far more geared towards positional techniques (i.e., on which side of you he is, how many opponents, etc.), rather than how close your opponent is. Our MJER waza are, for example, based on being able to quickly sheath the blade (noto) between attacks, & to then draw it again quickly to attack without an opponent knowing in which direction we plan to strike. A longer blade slows down that process, as well as slowing a swordsman from quickly assuming a defensive position (kamae) when needed.

 

In fact, Sensei has me bring both my short iaito (2.25 shaku) & my long blade (2.6) so we can demonstrate for our newer students how much difference just a few seconds make as a function of blade length in our waza. Really quite an eye-opener! The short blade wins every time. I don't see why that would have changed in the past few hundred years.

 

Ken

[Pete Klein]

Ken, please -- seconds in time or angulation?

 

Pete

[Ken-Hawaii]

Both, actually, Pete, but I meant seconds of time. I ran a rough calculation & it came out to losing about 0.75 seconds for every extra inch of blade length. That's considering both drawing time (nukitsuke) & sheathing (noto), since we do both between each waza.

 

Ken

[Adrian]

 

Once again, just because a Samurai could use an odachi doesn't mean that he should use one. Those of us who train in iaido are well aware of the fact that the length of a blade has very little to do with how well you can use it in CQB (close-quarters battle). Battle waza are far more geared towards positional techniques (i.e., on which side of you he is, how many opponents, etc.), rather than how close your opponent is. Our MJER waza are, for example, based on being able to quickly sheath the blade (noto) between attacks, & to then draw it again quickly to attack without an opponent knowing in which direction we plan to strike. A longer blade slows down that process, as well as slowing a swordsman from quickly assuming a defensive position (kamae) when needed.

 

In fact, Sensei has me bring both my short iaito (2.25 shaku) & my long blade (2.6) so we can demonstrate for our newer students how much difference just a few seconds make as a function of blade length in our waza. Really quite an eye-opener! The short blade wins every time. I don't see why that would have changed in the past few hundred years.

 

Ken

 

Ken, I think it's safe to assume that these long odachi were special purpose swords. I remember seeing a few days ago an engraving which showed how the European two handed sword was used against tight pike formations, the soldiers wielding them had ample space to move and retreat between swings.

[Ken-Hawaii]

Yeah, the claymore was a brutal weapon up to 60 inches long, with a 42-48 inch blade. I trained with them for a few years back while I was teaching European fencing. But the Scots didn't fight like the Japanese did, Adrian, & the claymore was used primarily in clan-size battles, rather than in coordination with other warriors. And since it was a hacking, rather than cutting weapon, it was primarily used for vertical cuts, with some thrusts, & usually very few wide swings. It had many of the same problems an odachi would have, & both require a lot of space around the sword-swinger.

 

Ken

[Adrian]

Ken, I'm not talking about the Claymore but the Bidenhander, the weapon used by specialised Landsknecht soldiers as shown in the engraving from my previous post.

As opposed to the Claymore, the Bidenhander was used in large scale pitched battles.