Tamahide Oshigata help...

[cabowen]

Does anyone have any oshigata of the two shinshinto smiths who signed Tamahide 玉英　(first and second generation) they could post? I don't have access to my fujishiro or shinshinto taikan....Thanks...

[John A Stuart]

The entry for Soryushi Tamahide in Fujishiro has no oshigata. John

[cabowen]

Darn, I was afraid of that...thanks for looking....Guess I will have to dig out my shinshinto taikan and check that. Thanks again.

[Gunome]

Hello,

 

This one has a NBTHK Hozon : http://www.nihontoantiques.com/fss580.htm

So the mei is legit, but no information about the generation, but maybe with the datation area (~1830)

 

Hope it could help you

 

Best regards

 

Sébastien

[cabowen]

Thank you...I saw that one but yes, no way to tell which generation it is...Thanks again.

[takakage]

Hi,

Just one oshigata in the shin shinto book of Serge Degore.

[cabowen]

Thank you! That is the shodai...

[Bazza]

  cabowen said:

Does anyone have any oshigata of the two shinshinto smiths who signed Tamahide 玉英　(first and second generation) they could post? I don't have access to my fujishiro or shinshinto taikan....Thanks...

Chris,

I'll trade you photos for any information you have about these smiths... sometime!!! I've attached photos of a lovely Tamahide wakizashi that crossed my path five years ago in a lovely koshirae. I'm sorry I have no information as to which generation this one is.

 

Best regards,

Barry Thomas

(aka BaZZa)

[cabowen]

Thank you Barry. Nice blade indeed. By the way, based on the 4 mei examples I have collected thus far, yours appears to be the shodai.

 

See below for more info...

 

The wakizashi of the two swords I mentioned in my recent ebay score thread is actually, after a serious look, signed Tamahide, not Masahide. It is a very well made blade but only a two kanji signature. I am trying to research these two smiths to see how the mei compares...

 

Thanks again.

[cabowen]

Through the help of a very kind forum member, I have received an example of the nidai Tamahide from a Shibata Rei catalog. In the interest of sharing info, here is how it roughly translates:

 

Soryushi Tamahide (玉秀) was the son of Soryushi Tamahide (玉英).　The shodai Tamahide was a very influential person among the tosho of the Sendai Han in the Bakumatsu period. At first, he was a student of the Ichinoseki smith, Takehiro Yasuhide. From that relationship, he was given an introduction to the school of Suishinshi Masahide's top student, Taikei Naotane and went to Tokyo. During the Bunsei period he returned to Sendai and the nidai Tamahide began training along with many other students.　Thus Tamahide laid the foundation which made the Sendai branch of the Suishinshi group the strongest.

 

The nidai Tamahide also went to Tokyo and trained in the Naotane school. He received the Nao kanji and signed Naomitsu. In Kaei 4 he returned home to Sendai. After returning home, he began signing Tamahide 玉秀. There is a gassaku work dated Kaei 5 surviving. His father, Tamahide died at the age of 71 in Bunkyo 2 and after his father's death, he again changed his mei, this time to Tamahide, using the same kanji as his father, 玉英, becoming the nidai.

 

Here is an early work of the nidai done when he was 30 years old. A work that shines, done in masame, it is a work from Sendai that makes a deep impression.

 

Tokubetsu Hozon.

 

[Eric H]

Some additional information on Tamahide / Tamateru:

 

In the reference books (Sesko, Hawley) shodai and nidai are listed as Tamateru.

 

Nihonto Club..from Tsunafusa - Tamahide - Tamateru.

 

Eric

[cabowen]

Thank you Eric for the additional info, much appreciated.

 

I have received, again through the generous and kind efforts of one of our members, a copy of an article on Tamahide and his work written with a period document as a source. I need to spend more time with it but it is quite comprehensive and should provide me with quite a bit of info.

[Eric H]

I believe the nijmei is by the Nidai Tamahide.

Eric

[cabowen]

The middle two oshigata are the shodai I believe Eric. The "ryu" 龍　kanji has a distinctive difference among the 10 or so verified oshigata I have assembled. Look at the right side two horizontal strokes; the shodai's are like commas, the nidai straight horizontal strokes. Here are verified examples of the "ryu" kanji from both shodai and nidai:

 

Shodai:

 

Nidai:

 

Verified examples of the shodai's mei in the next post...

[cabowen]

Here are verified examples of the shodai's mei...The nakago jiri is also consistent with the mei on my blade. One final thing that has me leaning toward the shodai is the age of the patina on the nakago. The nidai did not start using the Tamahide 玉英 mei until after the death of the shodai in Bunkyo 2. The nakago patina of mine seems too old to be the nidai's work. Of course that isn't definitive, just another piece of info....

 

Very much appreciate your contributions.

 

[Eric H]

Mei change over time, more or less. The „ryu“ kanji is convincing in differentiation between the Shodai and Nidai. Are there Nidai examples with mei after his father‘s death?

 

Table from left to right:

 

Shodai approved

your Wakizashi

Nidai

Shodai

 

Eric

[cabowen]

I have an oshigata of the nidai done after the death of the shodai with the same kanji as the shodai but it is poorly reproduced and thus the finer points are indistinct. Here is a verified shodai that to me looks very close to mine:

 

[Eric H]

I think both Tamahide are of equal skill hence the blade‘s characteristics lead perhaps more precisely to the one or the other.

 

Eric

[cabowen]

Yeah, it really doesn't matter too much which of the two it is....always nice to know though!

 

I will see what the shinsa team has to say.

 

Thanks Eric for your input-it is greatly appreciated...

[Stephen]

Great thread more of what this place is about!!!

[runagmc]

Maybe I missed something, but the manner of the tagane that I outlined seem to match with the mei labeled as nidai a few posts back in the 4 mei comparison. Did I miss something? If so, sorry for wasting time...

[Peter Bleed]

Chris,

Thanks for an interesting thread. The Sendai Han Toshu Meikan has information about both generations of this line. The first master was a student of Musashi no Yasuhde and he also worked with Naotani. He had a bunch of deshi. The line is covered in pages 124-133 of the Meikan. It shows 11 swords, 9 by the first, one by the second and one that was a joint project. I'll be happy to send you xeroxes if that would help. My impression is that the jury is out on Tamahide, was he a sword smith or a carver? He seems to have made a lot of short swords, but he sure could trick'em out. A nice engraved Tamahide was offered at the Chicago show some years ago, but at a price that was - or at least seemed - atmospheric.

Peter

[cabowen]

Thanks Peter for the info....If you can scan the Meikan info and email it, that would be great. Or, xerox and give to me in Tampa if that is more convenient....

 

Thanks again to all who commented...