komonjo is selling a Kotetsu (ebay)

[Blundemo]

Good workmanship, but a Kotetsu on ebay resold from yahoo Japan auctions is doubtful.

 

http://www.ebay.com/itm/S67-Japanese-Sa ... m1e8458373

 

Few hours left.

 

A signed kotetsu would go for over $100,000, but this is a nice shinto blade.

[Pete Klein]

If it was genuine, it would never have been listed on Yahoo! Japan, let alone Ebay. We see this quite often, unfortunately.

[Stephen]

but you have to admit its a pretty package for the current price

[Blundemo]

Final price $6,312.

 

For a nicely made gimei blade with some history behind it, it is not bad. Most of komonjo's recent sales appear to be from blades with fake signatures of famous smiths.

[Ken-Hawaii]

I've dealt with Mike Yamaguchi for a long time, with absolutely no problems. If he knows a blade is gimei, he lists it that way. But I have to admit this Kotetsu went awfully cheap if it's real.

 

Ken

[drbvac]

Perhaps one of the most famed Kotetsu blades was a fake: that of Kondō Isami, the commander of the late Edo-era patrol force called Shinsengumi. However, this sword was not a Kotetsu, but instead a sword made by the foremost smith of that era (known in Japanese swordmaking history as the shinshin-to era), Minamoto Kiyomaro, and bearing a forged Kotetsu signature made by master signature-faker Hosoda Heijirō.

[Ken-Hawaii]

I've written a paper on Kiyomaro, Brian, but have not been able to find anything on the so-called fake Kotetsu used by Kondo Isami. Is there any information that you have that can shed some light on this? I own a papered Kiyomaro, so this is of particular interest. Feel free to respond to me at jssh@catii.com.

 

Thanks!

 

Ken

[John A Stuart]

From wiki; Kondō is said to have owned a katana called "Kotetsu" (虎徹), the work of the 17th century swordsmith Nagasone Kotetsu. However, the authenticity of his "Kotetsu" is highly debatable. According to Yasu Kizu's pamphlet on the swordmaker Kotetsu, Kondō's sword may actually have been made by Minamoto no Kiyomaro, a swordmaker of high repute roughly contemporary to Kondō.[9] ^ Yasu Kizu, Swordsmith Nagasone Kotetsu Okisato (Hollywood: W.M. Hawley Publications, 1990), p. 9 John

[Ken-Hawaii]

I'm familiar with that quotation, John, but in about a year of research, I couldn't come up with a single documented case where Kiyomaro allowed utsushi on any of his blades.

 

Ken

[Baka Gaijin]

Good morning Ken,

 

Can you explain the term Utsushi please.

 

Cheers

[Ken-Hawaii]

From Wikipedia: The Japanese term, Utsushi (写?) can be translated as, appropriation, emulation, inspiration, attribution, etc. However, the word Utsushi encompasses the meanings found in all the terms mentioned. An Utsushi can be a work where an artist is inspired by a traditional motif and incorporates the design in a work of art or the artist is emulating a masterpiece of the past to surpass the original subtly.

 

With Nihonto, utsushi can mean that the master let his deshi make blades that he signed, or that the master was hired to copy a missing blade from a different smith. It's often associated with a smith wanting to duplicate the style of another smith. I've also seen it as utsushi-mono, or copies or recreations of past masterpieces.

 

Ken

[runagmc]

utsushi can mean that the master let his deshi make blades that he signed

 

Never heard the term "utsushi" used like this. Only "dai-saku"...

 

Has anyone else experienced the term "utsushi" used like in the quote?

[Guido]

Utsushi (写し) simply means "copy", Utsushimono (写物) ist he result oft he copying process (mono 物 = thing). Making copies of famous work is quite common for apprentices of traditional crafts in Japan – and even later in their carreer – and doesn't have the same negative connotation as in the West. Utsushimono are signed by the artist with his own name.

 

If a master signs a sword made by his son or student, it's called Daimei (代銘).

 

Neither Kiyomaro nor his school made any Utsushimono, with the notable exception of a Tantō by Kiyomaro himself that's a copy of a work by Osafune Kanemitsu (Tōken Bijutsu # 652).

 

The sword that was owned by Kondō Isami is a Gimei Kotetsu; it was bought at a sword fittings shop in Yotsuya (笠倉出版社: 武将・剣豪と日本刀 page 186). Kiyomaro was a resident of Yotsuya, and this might have given currency to the rumor that it was made by him.

 

Btw, I never heard that "Kiyomaro didn't allow Utsushimono of his blades", and don't see how he could have prevented it.

[Ken-Hawaii]

Hey, Guido - how's Indonesia?

 

I probably should have been a bit clearer on the statement that Kiyomaro didn't allow any of his students to sign his blades, and vice-versa.

 

Ken

[runagmc]

Guido, doesn't dai-saku mean the sword was made by the student, signed by the master, and dai-mei mean the mei of the master was carved by the student, for the master? I thought I had these terms straight by now :?

 

"dai" meaning something like "in service to an elder or master"

[Guido]

Dai-Mei 代銘 and Daisaku-Mei 代作銘 are the same thing: the master’s signature is placed on a sword made by his student with permission of the master, or the master signs a sword made by a student. This is usually seen when the master is too old or infirmed to make swords, but has not yet passed his position on to his student, which often does not happen until he dies. These signatures are regarded as authentic or equivalent to the real signature.

[runagmc]

daisaku - made by student in masters service, signed by master

daimei (or daisaku-mei)- made by student and signed by student, for master, in masters service...

 

Not trying to be argumentative, but with all due respect for your superior knowledge and experience in the subject, I have to say I fail to see how it's the same thing. Oh well, thanks for the explanation anyway... they are always appreciated...

[Guido]

daisaku - made by student in masters service, signed by master

daimei (or daisaku-mei)- made by student and signed by student, for master, in masters service...

You are misquoting me. Anyhow, if you look up the Kanji you should understand.

[Stephen]

how about going back to the org sword in question, its pros , cons?

[Guido]

how about going back to the org sword in question, its pros , cons?

Yes, how about it? What's your opinion?

[Stephen]

NO you first LOL

[Adrian]

I would also be interested in hearing Stephen's opinion on this sword.

[Jim P]

Hi Ken, A paper on Kiyomaro that sounds like a interesting read when/if are you going to publish? also if its OK can you tell us what sort of paper does your Kiyomaro have ?

Not much point Stephen on the pros , cons on this one it would be hard to workout who made the gimei from just photos

[Brian]

It's listed by Komonjo on eBay. That means I don't even have to look at the auction. It is 100% gimei with a guarantee of failing shinsa.

Not like we haven't discussed this before, or haven't seen other Kotetsu, Kyomaru and others from him on eBay. The sword may be nice...so then it is a nice mumei piece that needs mei removal.

And yes..I think we do need to clarify the daisaku thing for once and for all. Guido..the first sentence is a bit ambiguous.

So student signing master's signature on student's work (with permission) or master signing student's work are both daisaku?

 

Brian

[Guido]

Yes.

[cabowen]

So student signing master's signature on student's work (with permission) or master signing student's work are both daisaku?

 

Brian

 

Your first example, from my understanding, is a daisaku-daimei. The second is just daisaku.

 

It should be pointed out that calling a blade a "daisaku-daimei" can often times be thought of as euphemism for the more commonly used "gimei".

 

As for this blade, looks too nice to be a Kotetsu.... Shape is right, but the hada and hamon are not what I have seen in his work.

[estcrh]

daisaku - made by student in masters service, signed by master

daimei (or daisaku-mei)- made by student and signed by student, for master, in masters service...

 

Not trying to be argumentative, but with all due respect for your superior knowledge and experience in the subject, I have to say I fail to see how it's the same thing. Oh well, thanks for the explanation anyway... they are always appreciated...

 

From "The Connoisseur's Book of Japanese Sword" By Kōkan Nagayama.

[runagmc]

daisaku - made by student in masters service, signed by master

daimei (or daisaku-mei)- made by student and signed by student, for master, in masters service...

 

Guido, you said I misquoted you here...

To be clear, this was not meant to quote you. I wrote this to clarify my own understanding of the terms in an attempt to show why I was confused by your definition, and use, of them.

 

The quote by Kokan Nagayama matches my understanding...

 

Again, none of this is meant to be argumentative, but in the interest of trying to come to the correct conclusions. It's difficult to discuss a subject like this when everyone is using the terms differently.