Interesting info on tameshigiri and foresic study of remains

[drdata]

Hey all, been some time since I dare start a thread here. Saw the below site mentioned in a SBG thread and thought it was worthy of mention here.

 

The site focuses on test cutting and links to an interesting article:

 

http://www.tameshigiri.ca/2013/12/15/a- ... i-remains/

 

Which in turn, links to a pdf of the paper that apparently studies damage on remains of two test cut victims:

 

" (A case report of human skeletal remains performed “Tameshi-giri” (test cutting with a Japanese sword) Bull. Natl. Mus. Nat. Sci., Ser. D, 36 pp. 27–36, December 22, 2010),"

 

http://www.kahaku.go.jp/research/public ... _D3603.pdf

 

Hope others find interesting.

 

regards

[Peter Bleed]

Harry,

Thank you so much. I had not seen this paper. It is interesting from several regards. I have mailed it to some of my forensic friends. I'm sure it will get wide ciculation.

Peter

[cabowen]

Gruesome but interesting. Thanks!

[george trotter]

That is interesting, especially his analysis of what the circled inscriptions mean...two bodies placed on a soil (mound)...2 - 7 bodies can be placed on the mound to see if the sword will cut through them (at one stroke)...etc.

This goes back to a very recent discussion on the literal meaning of these inscriptions.

Can anyone here state categorically if these tameshigiri inscriptions REALLY mean "cut through 2 bodies"...or..."2nd body cut (was used)"?

 

Thanks for posting.

Regards,

[cabowen]

Here is my take:

 

The inscriptions mean the number of bodies cut, not the "number" of the cut. I believe this to be the case for two reasons: first of all, there are something like 12 or more "numbered" cuts, yet we usually only see 2 or 3 bodies cut. I have never seen 10, 12, etc. Secondly, some times we see, for example, a 2 bodies cut test and the type of cut is specified: "ryoguruma" or the like. If the "2 bodies cut" meant "number 2 cut", then specifying ryoguruma would be redundant, at best.

[Toryu2020]

George -

 

As I tried to explain in the previous post the difference is clearly stated in Japanese;

 

Futatsu Do means two do - the little tsu tells us this is how it is to be read and understood.

 

Ni no do means "number two" do cut - when the little no character is included it clearly indicates this is how it is to be read and understood.

 

The same will be true for three, four, five though multiples over three are rare.

 

Since "hitotsu do" is not that impressive a single body cut will say something like Dodan ori meaning cut thru one body and into the dodan (mound).

 

hoping i made this clearer...

-t

[Toryu2020]

Props to Dr Data for postting this a very interesting study,

 

We need to remember why mutilation of the body was considered "judicial punishment" with official sanction and not just some grusome torture carried out by corrupt officials.

 

In Chinese culture just as in Japanese culture it is believed that when you return as a spirit you take the shape of your earthly body. Thus in China the death of a thousand cuts was not a torture where you agonized thru 999 cuts, rather the criminal died rather quickly but was punished eternally in that he would be unrecognizable to his family or friends if hereturned as a spirit.

 

The same logic applied in Japan, death by decapitation and use of your corpse for suimono-giri was the second worst punishment on the books. The very worst punishment was death by decapitation, suimono-giri and then your body was dumped in a potters grave with no proper Buddhist ceremonial. This was punishment not only for the criminal but also for his family and it was eternal.

 

The fact that these two bodies were buried in a family plot in a temple suggests to me that they were most likely related. Also it suggets that while thier crimes were serious, they did not receive the severest punishment or we would not have their bones as evidence today.

 

-t

[Brian]

That to Harry for sharing this, and to Tom for the clarification.

 

Brian

[kusunokimasahige]

Edit admin - This is about tameshigiri...not executions. Please stay on topic.

[drdata]

I'm happy to see that others also found this interesting.

 

As for cutting practice vs. execution, when I scanned the article I sensed that using bodies for test cutting was often the result of a criminal or social misstep, where being cut was the sentence. I suppose there was also cases where an unlucky but otherwise innocent body was appropriated for a test more focused on sword performance and less on punishment.

 

Regards

[Brian]

My edit was of H.J's post referring to yari and executions, which I removed as irrelevant to the topic at hand and also pushing a different agenda.

 

Brian.

[kusunokimasahige]

Brian.

 

I was referring to a passage in the scientific report about two holes found in the front of the skull of one of the skeletons which were made by a two -or three sided blade. These do not correspond with the tameshi-giri cuts in the rest of that same report.

 

I have no clue what you are on about here. Its a scholarly paper so I made a remark on something which was left open in the paper.

 

You might also be surprised to hear that Tameshi was at times performed on live subjects.

 

Agenda' s have nothing to do with that thank you very much.

 

 

KM

[Brian]

The mention of how executions were done on crosses and how yari were often used is hardly pertinent to our collecting interests. And you do have a fondness for discussing Japanese attrocities or executions judging by the number of posts I have removed in the past. Please keep on topic, and keep things relevant to sword collecting. Tameshigiri is on topic. Yari executions are not. :|

 

Brian

[kusunokimasahige]

Well, if people are that sensitive about atrocities and that adament on the collecting interests of it all this board should not even allow posts dealing with cutting tests on corpses (which constitutes desecrating a body in these modern times) and should only be talking about tameshi giri performed on bamboo and wet rice mats apart from the occasional translation of an edo period cutting test or the use of Shin-Gunto in war, which also seems to be a sensitivity on the board.

 

I am here for scholarly debate on these matters and their history. Not sensation.

 

And that the last I will say about it.

 

KM

[Jussi Ekholm]

Unfortunately I have a train to catch, so I can't write a long post.

 

There is a great article on tameshigiri on several stacked bodies in Token Bijutsu 674. And Sakaue Kazuhiro also gave bit of his insight to that article.

[Toryu2020]

Sorry i missed the mystery post -

What i would say is that you cannot separate tameshi-giri (suimono-giri) from executions. Under the Yamano family these were official sword tests, using the bodies of executed criminals.

 

Under the Yamada sword testing was a "service"provided as a side business to their profession as executioners. It all got codified and routine under the Tokugawa. Yari were used for crucifixions and were tested on heads as described in the article.

 

They may not have recorded tests on yari but they were in fact doing this kind of thing.

 

If youll allow me to paraphrase my teacher, " it is exactly because the world of the bushi was so harsh that they could produce such sublime art" the two are in separable...

-t