Mystery Sword

[Tai1z]

Dear Members,

 

I am looking for an opinion and advice on this sword which was a gift to my great (padre) uncle in Japan 1947.

It is said to have belonged to Ikeda clan (according to a small translated text). As an Australian, there seems to be no regular Shinsa or other process to authenticate the artefact. My interest is to follow my fathers wish to try to reunite the sword with the family who gave it to my great uncle or lend it for exhibition.

 

Thank you Nihonto Message Board

 

Glenn T

 

I apologise if I have incorrectly used terminology.

[Mark]

maybe Sagami Ju nin Sadamune "Big" name, if it were real it is very valuable

[Tai1z]

Thank you. I would very much like for it to go to Shinsa but from Australia? How?

Glenn T

[J Reid]

http://www.sho-shin.com/tosan2.htm <--- Glenn,

(for you to compare to your sword)

I'm excited for you.. This is quite a find.. Def worth taking more pictures and posting here for us to look at.

[Gabriel L]

Can you post a better photo of the first couple date characters? Second looks like 治, followed by ?年二月 (? year second month) but I can’t begin to guess the first kanji. Too bad about the mekugi-ana blocking such a critical section of the nenki…

 

You can submit it to shinsa (NBTHK or NTHK) in Japan. There are agents (e.g. Paul Martin, Chris Bowen, etc.) who may be able to help you with import/submission/export, or maybe this Australian dealer can give you advice. Maybe you could contact the Sydney Token Kai for help as well.

[Grey Doffin]

Hi Glen,

There are zero signed Sadamune that aren't forgeries (fake signatures). This could be the 1st and only but don't get your hopes up. Odds are very strong that this isn't what the signature would have you believe. There are 1,000s of gimei (fake signature) Sadamune.

But this doesn't mean yours isn't a good sword; it could be just fine except for the signature.

Unless you have paperwork telling you which family it was that gave the sword you won't be able to return it to the gifter; no way to learn who it was.

Grey

[Tai1z]

Thank you again all,

Here are a few more pics that may shed light. Don't want to bombard.

My uncle was a Padre with JFOR from New Zealand Navy and was given the sword by his personal assistant/translator/driver and I am trying to trace his steps there through other channels.

 

I truly do appreciate your assistance,

 

Glenn T

[Tai1z]

Thanks again. Appreciated.

Some more detail pictures,

Glenn T

[hxv]

Glen,

 

I like the overall shape of the wakizashi. It looks like a nice sword, but the nakago is distinctly non-Soshu.

 

Regards,

Hoanh

[Robert Mormile]

Looks like: 貞冶六年二月

February of the sixth year of the Joji Era (1368)

Joji Era – 1362-1368

 

Robert

[Jacques]

Hi,

 

Don't dream too much.

[bubba-san]

Very nice Sir, what a find . It looks authentic to me . But signatures can be missleading . I personally

wish you luck that it is authentic . If I could be so lucky ........ Regards James

[Tai1z]

Thank you again gentlemen. I appreciate your sharing of knowledge, opinion and words of caution. When I have more info I'll share it.

Regards

Glenn T

[Darcy]

Some edits made here due to a poor choice of wording on my part making it look like I was accusing the original poster of fabricating the mei. I didn't intend that at all and I regret the choice of wording. It's gimei from much longer ago than now and the original poster had nothing to do with it of course. This tanto is about the right length for seppuku so if you want to lend it to me...

 

....

 

Mei is fake.

 

Nakago has a poorly formed attempt at kenkyo jiri.

 

We are lead to believe [by standard theories] that Kenkyo jiri such as on this tanto is part of Soshu den. It oddly shows up on suriage katana as well as ubu tanto (only one way that can happen).

 

Masamune tanto do not have any secure pattern to their nakago jiri.

 

Sadamune tanto more often have it but often do not.

 

Chances are a whole lot of them are dummied up to some degree as it's an easy fabrication to make if you want to give someone a nice Sadamune or Masamune gift.

 

Hiromitsu never used it. Nor did Akihiro.

 

So to me [edit] it's just something that SOMEONE probably did to THEIR mumei piece [edit] in order to strengthen the perception that it is what THEY'RE claiming it to be [edit]. Otherwise ONE wouldn't see it showing up at all on suriage daito.

 

[Edit].

 

The lack of skill in execution of the signature above doesn't strike me as the genuine natural type of koto signature but just a bad gimei, as is the attempt to make a kenkyo jiri which should at least suit the rest of the shape of the nakago better.

 

That said it is possibly some kind of related school tanto that someone took and "upgraded."

 

You should post the rest of the images of the blade as that will tell us what we need to know about it. Could be late Nanbokucho to well into Muromachi. Could even be later period Soshu that someone cut down to cut off a mei and then faked up a nakago from.

 

100% though it's no Sadamune mei.

[Brian]

So to me it's just something that you probably did to your mumei piece in order to strengthen the perception that it is what you're claiming it to be. Otherwise you wouldn't see it showing up at all on suriage daito.

Just to clarify..by "you" Darcy means hypothetically speaking in the first person as some owner generations ago..he doesn't mean "you" as the current owner :lol:

 

I agree, gimei. However it has nice lines and a promising shape..so might still be a very good piece.

 

Brian

[Stefan]

The blade does not have the typical nambokucho shape. It looks like middle to late muromachi jidai

The shape of the nakago and the mei are wrong for sadamune.

Hamon is not typical. It seems to be an very broad midareba as seen in sue shoshu.

In my humble opinion : Gimei.

[Darcy]

Yes, I made a really poor choice of words, I didn't for a minute think that anyone here would be actively involved or even know how to make a gimei.

 

When I was speaking I was speaking as a guy 300 years ago who wanted to make a gift of a Sadamune for instance. I was not speaking to the original poster.

 

Sorry for any confusion I caused.

[Jacques]

Hi,

 

Authentificated zaimei of Soshu Sadamune don't exist..

[nihonto1001]

Authentificated zaimei of Soshu Sadamune don't exist..

 

Jac-

Not all of us share your infinite knowledge of the universe. The guy is looking for information on his sword. No need to be a

[Tai1z]

Dear message board,

Thank you again for your comments and advice and those who have gone to great effort.

Glenn T.

A couple more photos I have with me. Anyone restore binding and scabbards?

[hxv]

Glenn,

 

The sword is mitsumune (three-sided ridge). In my opinion, it's a very nice sword, well worth the cost of a new professional polish. If it were mine, I would spring the money to get it polished & get new shirasaya.

 

Regards,

Hoanh

[Jean]

Glenn,

 

Looks fine but has not undergone many polishes for such an old sword. You can see it in picture 020.jpg and the fact that the soebi is intact...

[cabowen]

I think it is clear that this is not a genuine Sadamune nor is it as old as it would have us believe- nonetheless, I believe it is a quality work that would be stunning if fully restored. Additionally, it has sentimental value and is quite a unique and splendid family heirloom. Please do what you can to restore and/or take care of this sword.

[Peter Bleed]

I think these "old" Sadamunes deserve some curiosity - and mebbe even respect. At least I think that should to be approached as a reflection of early sword collecting.

In either Bakumatsu or Meiji times - when information was not at all what it is today or even by the pre-War Showa era - there was a market for swords that fit into the right "famous" categories.That was when those systematic collections of the Goto generations were assembled, remember. In that context, every serious collector needed a Sadamune. Standards were not nearly as well informed as the Honami made them and disbelief was probably suspended. Who was going to call you a liar? It is no surprise that lots of Sadamunes were created. By today's standards they are obviously bad, but those guy didn't know as much as we do.

Peter

[Gabriel L]

Authentificated zaimei of Soshu Sadamune don't exist..

…Not all of us share your infinite knowledge of the universe.

 

Holiday spirit from everyone aside , in this case Grey already stated as much, and there is a quote by Fujishiro to this effect. “There are no genuine works with the mei on them” – H.W.’s translation. But yes, “book knowledge” or no, I think it’s been firmly established that it is gimei…

 

FWIW I agree that the mei is beside the point as it looks like a very nice Sōshū-den blade in good mounts. I hope Glenn will have it restored and we can see the results posted in the future. On that note Glenn, I did give some contacts on the first page of this post… the same people who can help with polish or shinsa can arrange other restorations like tsukamaki etc.

 

Cheers,

—GLL

[Jacques]

Hi,

 

Glenn,

 

Looks fine but has not undergone many polishes for such an old sword. You can see it in picture 020.jpg and the fact that the soebi is intact...

 

 

Jean,

 

Please have a look here :

 

 

 

[Darcy]

Jacques, I realize that you're dealing with a lack of proficiency in English so maybe this is your problem rather than just being argumentative and willfully dense.

 

Intact is a word that can mean original, or it can mean "not broken."

 

My laptop is intact, but it shows signs of wear everywhere.

 

Jean is comparing the state of polish to an item like this:

 

 

As finer horimono will vanish or become partial much sooner than a deep hi.

 

The point being (which you missed) is that the state of the horimono indicate that the sword is in good condition and is attempting to convey information to the original poster. This is generally considered a good thing, vs. just arguing for the sake of arguing.

[cabowen]

We should keep in mind that hi can be added at any time, as can patina, and therefore are not always a valid indicator of age and/or number of polishes. Similarly, a new blade can be polished down to appear to be old.

[Tai1z]

Is it possible that works (Nihonto) which have been kept as ceremonial pieces are just rarely polished?

 

Ps grateful for your comments and thoughts. I will be copying all your ideas for my dad to read for his education. He remembers the day he received it, early 50s.

 

Glenn T

[kusunokimasahige]

From what I understand is that a polish generally should last about 100 years, when the blade is not used and just resting in its saya, maybe less.

 

Also, polishing methods changed greatly througout history.

 

So I think it is almost impossible to say.

 

KM