Ok. I got my Honzon Token and new questions :) ?

[kusunokimasahige]

Vulgar as in :

 

The blade is important, not the koshirae, nor the habaki. An expensive habaki could be seen as lavish/decadent.

 

A habaki should be functional and not too lavish. (according to certain aesthetics)

 

KM

 

Of course it is still nice to look at and I agree with Brian (see below) that everyone should decide for themselves.

 

Thank you Brian for showing me my error. I used the wrong word indeed. I got confused by the word frugality in the frugality laws of the Tokugawa era.

[Brian]

People have the right to fit whatever parts they like to their swords. Otherwise we had better all throw away our nice kashira and fit plain horn.

I think a gold habaki looks stunning. Would do it to every blade if I had the money. We don't have the right to dictate tastes here, and let's not go down that road please. I am sure the Op isn't seriously considering laying out for one...but if he wants one, good luck to him. There is a reason why Goto fittings are expensive, and why people choose double habaki over single. Some people just want the finer things in life..and if you have the money then go for it!

BTW HJ...you had better check the meaning of frugality. I don't think it means what you think it does...

 

Brian

[Dr Fox]

We don't have the right to dictate tastes here, and let's not go down that road please. Brian

 

[nagamaki - Franco]

Calling a solid gold habaki vulgar goes beyond dictating tastes, it ignores functional reasons for the use of softer metals, it ignores history, and least of all it stands as being judgmental without knowing or understanding the circumstances behind why it was done.

[kusunokimasahige]

Franco, I think it will be hard to figure out why a sword has a certain habaki. The original owners and makers have long been dead.

 

In general aesthetics you can of course comment on style.

 

KM

[Dr Fox]

Yes one can put any fittings they like onto a sword, but this is where the point becomes controversial. The blade is the art object, and its dressings it is felt by many should be in fitting with its period, and should be aesthetically pleasing.

 

Westernizing by the addition of fittings including those of precious metals, does not always complement the blades age or its period. If it follows, that it is what could have been expected at the blades history so be it.

 

There are many purists even on this board, do not find many of the choices made in dressings, to be in keeping with the ‘spirit of the blade’. And have voiced that view.

 

The term vulgar:lacking sophistication or good taste. Perhaps was a bit strong, not meant to insult or upset, but was used in the above context.

Gold foil habaki to give the gold colour is not the object of this post, solid gold is, when used to glamour, and for that reason only.

[Marius]

Franco,

 

I don't think any offence was meant :-) But I agree, I also sense that the term "vulgar" used here had a derisive sound to it... Using it as a form of expressing personal taste (and a distaste for things richly adorned with precious materials) was probably not too diplomatic, especially in the context of such a perfect item as Brian Tchernega's habaki. But it was probably visceral

 

I guess at the end of the day, it all boils down to tolerance. To like the simple, but I not to frown upon those who like the ornate (and the other way around, of course). We are here to study those works of art - blades and their fittings. We should focus on differentiating between great and poor workmanship, with many levels in between. A simple iron plate can be a masterwork, but then again, so can be a decorative tsuba with rich gold inlays.

 

Coming back to the habaki, IMHO a golden habaki, especially one made by a master craftsman such as Brian Tschernega, will not detract from the sword. on the contrary - it is a nice touch, a form of appreciation ("spared no expense").

 

Slightly off topic: A juxtaposition of the ornate and the austere maybe fun in this context... Yamakichibei vs. Goto or..Sen no Rikyu's tea rooms vs. Hideyoshi's golden tea room, etc...

[Dr Fox]

Mariusz.

 

In the interests of clarity!

 

At no time was it implied by me to indicate, or to make any statement to be used in context with the work of Mr Brian Tshernega, his work stands no criticism.

 

 

Franco.

 

You were the first to open the batting in response to the OP. And from your first, and every post thereafter, you ran with the solid gold habaki theme.

My view was in opposition, to such a high priced item as the first addition, to what is his first and most recent purchase. I could not see the logic in the expense, or the reason for this blade to warrant it.

I expanded my reasoning to include an answer to Jason’s Q No 7, to indicate there is another way to explore the final result of his project.

 

To accept what I said as an insult to you personally, is unfortunate, not meant, but perhaps not seen in the broader context of my posts.

[kusunokimasahige]

By the way, it is not Honzon token but Hozon.

 

KM

[Marius]

At no time was it implied by me to indicate, or to make any statement to be used in context with the work of Mr Brian Tshernega, his work stands no criticism.

 

Denis, thanks for clearing this :-) But of course, I understand your taste

[nagamaki - Franco]

Mariuszk, thanks for your thoughts.

 

To begin with my objectives in posting were simply in order to; update information on cost; make clear that a properly made habaki should absolutely have zero play; make clear that in the case of a solid gold habaki it is possible to reuse the same material; offer a visual example of Brian's work.

That's all! Reading anymore into it is the result of one's own imagination.

 

Personally, I agree that one should be most attentive and discriminating when it comes to the selection of "materials" attached to nihonto. And in saying so I strongly recommend that before making decisions one should always consult a number of 'experienced' and 'wise' nihonto people to broaden one's own perspectives. This is also one more reason why it is essential to build a 'good' library and visit things like formal displays to learn.

[Jacques]

Hi,

 

Man must keep in mind that the habaki is almost always hidden by the saya. :D

[Brian]

Hi,

 

Man must keep in mind that the habaki is almost always hidden by the saya. :D

And the blade is entirely hidden. :D :D + :D !

 

Brian

[Peter Bleed]

Franco,

You were being teased not insulted. You arebeing treated like a friend. I hope you will eventual see this as encouragement to separate what YOU feel from what matters in terms of sword history. I also encourage you to explore the concepts of "hade" and "sabi". Would you prefer tweed to silk? Is iron prettier than shakudo? Is the fact that you owned this sword an important part of its history?

Let me close by saying that you have engendered an interestng discussion. Thanks!

Peter

[Dr Fox]

Gentlemen I appeal to your sense of fair play to allow me to put forward my reason for the recent use of the word ‘vulgar’ in a recent post.

 

Offence seems to have been taken by a board member, who posted, I had insulted him. It is not my norm to insult either by design or accident; also I truly try to put forward postings that I believe are valid.

 

The turn of phrase which included the word vulgar, would not have the impact in normal speech, or be seen to be as harsh in my country, so it could have been mis-understood abroad. This terminology, I know I had picked up from some studying I had done at some time, but from where?

 

So it was by pure luck, that Peter gave me the two-word clue I needed, “hade” and “sabi”

 

Book; Elements Of Japanese Design.

Author; Boye De Mente.

Chapter; Kazarimono.

Titled. The spare use of ornaments.

 

"In Japanese aesthetics, any ornamentation or design that goes beyond a strict sense of restrained simplicity becomes gabita or vulgar,and the ultimate in bad taste. Much of this tradition of avoiding the ostentatious display of things has been lost in modern-day Japan, but it remains a key element in the wabi-sabi style of life."

 

 

A good read on anyones bookshelf.

[John A Stuart]

I just wonder at what point ornamentation becomes vulgar. This may be a very subjective thing. You see koshirae that are extremely ornamented, gold nuri, gold encrusted fittings of obviously mastercraft construction and then austere koshirae with subtle or even non-existent highlights and indeed still masterworks. Not all koshirae were made for chanoyu educated samurai with the sabi aesthetic implied and this itself may be an affectation by some, nor all made for daimyo or ultra rich merchants expressing their wealth or self-importance, real or otherwise. Strange though that the term vulgar which derives from vulgus which means common people in Latin would describe something that the common people could not generally afford. So be it, I don't think a solid gold habaki is ostentatious particularly; perhaps a better descriptive word. John

[hxv]

Perhaps a more palatable term might be "incommensurate" rather than vulgar. I have no dog in this fight, but the term vulgar seems a bit strong to me. It's a case of unintended use of a strong word on the poster's part, and subsequent misinterpretation on the reader's part. As I interpret the flow of the posts, Denis's comment was directed at the OP's sword, not at Franco's sword.

 

May we please shake hands and declare a ceasefire?

 

 

Regards,

Hoanh

[Dr Fox]

John

 

Now with the benefit of hindsight I agree.

 

Hoanh

 

Thank you, it is exactly as you say.

[John A Stuart]

No dog Hoanh, but, you are hard on your horses. John

[nagamaki - Franco]

So far there is nothing really personal to carry or hang on to here, no reason to continue or for being defensive. Let it go.

[gauze3539]

Thank you very much for all of your opinion guys. It was really good to learn both aspects and I think all of you guys are right. And sometimes a bitter advice is necessary

to make a beginner in the right way. Nothing is personal here and I didn't take Dr. Fox's word as personal neither. However, I still have to say the solid gold habaki is very

beautiful and I like the franco's habaki so much in my taste. It might not be on this blade, but I will have a similar one as Franco has one day for a future collection.

I appreciate it everyone. Have a good weekend.

 

Jason C.

[Marius]

Jason, there i nothing bitter here. You have a nice sword and you don't need to spend $,$$$ on a habaki

[Clement]

Yeah but still, what does he really mean by 'vulgar' ?

 

:lol:

 

 

 

If you decide to do tameshigiri with your sword, the first cut will cost about $3000 - the cost of a polish.

It's stupid but i laugh :lol:

[Dr Fox]

Clem.

The answer to your post is in the body of the topic. And it is my hope the absence of replies is an indicator of that.

 

For Franco

 

At no time in my posts, was there an aimed reference at you, for which you perceived an insult. You posted a picture of a fitted gold habaki, but I did not see a claim from you that this was your sword, or that the item was custom made for you.

 

A lot of posters post pictures to support their postings, without owning those items, others may have known from past years, that you had this item, but I didn't.

 

I cannot apologise for a slight that was not intended, but I can make a peace offering with this explanation.

[nagamaki - Franco]

At no time in my posts, was there an aimed reference at you

 

No apology required. When I said "thanks for the insult" it was meant more as a "thanks a lot" as anything else, even though I was a bit taken back by the word vulgar. When I said "let it go" it was meant sincerely. No worries.

 

I did not see a claim from you that this was your sword,

 

Correct. I was asked to place a habaki image on this thread, so that people could see what was being discussed as an example of a gold habaki that was remade from one that was melted down. Unfortunately I didn't have an image of the original habaki to show the complete transition from 'not good' to something representing excellence.

[seattle1]

Hello:

The habaki dust up was fun to read, and while unexpected it did touch on a really important part of the sword-tosogu-koshirae triad, as the habaki is the most important and intimate part of sword apparel that there is. In really olden times it is possible that more swords left the smith's hand with his habaki added than with his tsuba added. While not integral with the sword, it is the next thing to being so, and almost every sword must have one.

The work of Brian Tschernaega is really breathtaking, and while I believe he is the foremost artisan outside Japan he continues to study in Japan with his teacher. One worthwhile point beyond just his skill is that he will work with you as a client helping determine just the right habaki to complement the blade and/or koshirae. It need not be two piece, gold, etc., but it should be "right" and that is value adding beyond just the object. I have had him do a number of habaki and while all are excellent, my favorite is one done for a suriage koto naginata repurposed as a wakizashi where he combined his classic manji pattern on gold foil for one part with a highly polished high gold content shakudo for the other, making it of course a two piece habaki. It is something to behold.

Finally, while gold is all the thing now, when I started collecting the rule was gold for koto, silver for shinto, and copper (that great red copper sometimes that can still be seen today) on shinshinto. Most people would not dream of anything other than an integral wooden habaki as part of a shirasaya handle if they wanted to have a gendaito polished, though few did have them polished. There is nothing wrong with those old rules today, and a habaki maker would probably be willing to co-operate and if the sword has old fittings that might be the most appropriate way to go.

Old habaki are collectors' items in themselves. I once knew a man whose goal was collecting habaki made by Umetada Myoju, which some say were the highest aesthetic products that Myoju ever made.

Arnold F.

[Marius]

Arnold,

 

do you perhaps have photos of this excellent two piece habaki by Brian?

[nagamaki - Franco]

Thank you Arnold for adding additional insight into habaki making and Brian's work, much appreciated.

 

Touching upon this discussion of material for habaki, I would like to bring up the following point as part of this discussion for consideration, and these are my own thoughts for the most part as I have not discussed this openly before with anyone, so thoughts and input are welcome. There are records, I'm told, of sword cutting tests being performed with only the bare blade, no tsuka, no habaki. This fact indicates that when a sword cut is performed correctly the habaki itself when made correctly (a tight snug fit with zero play), plays a neutral roll and does not enter into the picture as far as the cut itself. Now, beginning from this point something got me thinking more in depth about the material being used to make habaki, particularly after watching the video of an attempt of a 'newly made nihonto' trying to cut thru a kabuto. In watching that video (high speed film), one sees the result including the amazing amount of distortion and the incredible resilience of the sword to bend and yet not break. In part for this to have to happen, something else along the line has to give in addition to the sword when it is mounted in order for the sword not to break. There has to be in a sense a weak link that works in the same sense as say an electric fuse that pops when there is a sudden over charge of energy, yet at the same time it has to have enough integrity that it stands up and performs to a high level otherwise. In the film you can see that the sword distorts and bends all the way to the habaki. If that is indeed the case, if the habaki were made of an iron (like it used to be) which is far more resistant to "giving" than a copper, silver, or gold would be, that in itself might be enough to cause a catastrophic failure. So, the use of softer metals to make habaki is quite purposeful far beyond just aesthetics.

[cabowen]

From what I have read and heard, tameshigiri was done with a wooden tsuka only, as pictured

 

http://www.shibuiswords.com/tameshi.htm

[kusunokimasahige]

Though this high speed stuff is indeed interesting, I am quite convinced the Japanese during the Samurai era did not have high-speed cameras. Maybe practical insight, but I am not certain that was the sole reason for a soft metal habaki.

 

KM