Ok. I got my Honzon Token and new questions :) ?

[gauze3539]

Hello guys.

 

I am sure few of members remember this sword I have posted in Nihonto section. I just got the sword yesterday with all papers. The blade is really beautiful without a single badness at this point.

 

I really appreciate the beauty of the blade.

 

I wasn't surprised too much when I found out the blade has been polished since it's an old blade and have too much good condition. This poor rookie raised many questions after he got a first

 

nihonto. So please share how your thinking is. In overall, I am very happy with everything except 2 things;

 

1. Reduced heavier/ thinker blade feeling that was caused from polishing (didn't expect this lightened feeling and I remember how thick and heavy kind of feeling when I hold any blade that has not been polished.)

2. Thinker nakago than the blade thickness- 1mm extra space from each side of blade to both inner sides of habaki (Temporarily, I pushed some firm hard board paper into the space between the

inner habaki and munemachi - hamachi area surfaces in order to avoid rattling in shirasaya.)

 

It's my first nihonto, and it arise the consequence of a not-researching-well problem a number of Nihonto rookies could committed just like me. No pain No gain.

 

So now I learn I make sure those next time when I purchase another Nihonto. But here are some more questions I arise as soon as I got the sword, and those subjective questions and answers were not really found through my poor web-based research skill because every sword restoring project is in different situation. The recognized fixes need to take place are two: Replacing rattling habaki and making new shirasaya. Since I have poor English skill, It would be clearer to ask you by bullet points. Please understand that. It would be really appreciated to hear your ideas.

 

My questions are;

 

1. Who would be the best person to go and let them do a new habaki job and shirasaya together in Sothern California? I am considering either one of two types from solid gold or solid silver.

 

 

2. When you get nihonto, do you usually make it fully funtional in battle field, or just enjoying it with shirasaya only? I am looking to purchase all fittings and make full koshirae with this sword. How

do you usually do when you get above Hozon Token.

 

 

3. If you have full battle koshirae mount, do you really cut tameshigiri with those of tokens which are above Hozon, or those are really for only looking and preservation with fine care as the literal

meaning " HOZON TOKEN ? Maybe hell no no no and I guess the whole purpose of existence of NBTHK is to prevent nihonto from meaningless abuses.?

 

4. Even if an artisan make a new habaki that completely fits to the polished blade, would that even possible to remove it from the blade? How would that even be scientifically possible? I must

able to put new habaki for new koshirae.

 

5. In general, could a single nihonto blade never be able to have perfect habaki fits because of substantial polishing work?

 

 

6. Is there any recommend - able solid gold habaki maker in the US based on your real experience your nihonto. ( Fred Lohmann and Michael Bell etc.)

 

7. When you get a nihonto in shirasaya, Do you look for all fitting accessories from similar period and same province that blade has forged and go for full koshirae? or Are you satisfy with just shirasaya -ed blade if you have no worries on the financial part?

 

 

Thanks a lot for reading.

 

Jason C.

[nagamaki - Franco]

1. Who would be the best person to go and let them do a new habaki job and shirasaya together in Sothern California? I am considering either one of two types from solid gold or solid silver.

 

Brian Tschernega, Seattle, Washington, 1-425-771-6339, he can do both habaki and shirisaya.

[cabowen]

Where did you get it polished such that a habaki and shirasaya weren't done as part of the process?

[Ken-Hawaii]

Jason, I would be really surprised if you could feel much difference between your blade when it was polished versus unpolished. Unless the togishi had to totally resculpt the blade (i.e., reshape the boshi, cut down the nakago, etc.), there just isn't all that much metal removed. Of the three blades I've had polished (two of which were in fairly bad shape), there was less than 22 grams difference in before & after weights - that's less than an ounce.... And for it to get Hozon origami, I'm sure there wasn't a whole lot of resculpting done.

 

And, like Chris, I'm amazed that you could get the repolished blade back in anything less than a new shirasaya & habaki! How did you receive it from the polisher?

 

Ken

[gauze3539]

Thanks a lot Franco.

 

Jason C.

[gauze3539]

Hi guys. I just have no idea how that happened. I just got it as is now. That hozon paper shown it's papered heisei 24nen.

So I could guess polishing took place not long ago. I was hoping very much the reason why the previous habaki is still there

was because it's solid gold but it appeared as gold plated. The problem of the sword is I can't get more of information of this sword since

the previous owner is in eternal peace. Shirasaya fits perfect on habaki but habaki rattles too much. How would I know the differences of

weight was just purely on my feeling by comparing it with the one that has same nagasa, but much thicker mune. I am sure 30g difference

on one's very tiny and delicate hand and arm could easily detect a bit of differences, which would eventually affect big difference on cutting

or drawing the sword. But again, you could be right too Ken. If the polishing does not reduce that much of holding feeling, as your word,

it would be much better for my nihonto and I hope it really didn't from the original condition. I don't know it's not before and after comparison.

But one thing it clearly showing on the blade is it's been polished and habaki is substantially wider than blade itself. I just think I need to get

a new habaki with new shirasaya. I want to ask Chris how much it would cost through his service. I will PM you Chris. Thanks.

 

Jason C.

[Grey Doffin]

If I understand correctly, the original habaki was left with the sword after polish because the original habaki is solid gold. Older solid gold habaki are always loose because gold is so much softer than steel. It wears away as it is being put on and taken off the nakago and becomes loose with time.

If the habaki is original to the sword and solid gold, do not replace it. Solid gold habaki are so scarce; so few swords have them. Count yourself lucky and leave well enough alone.

As for your idea to have mounts made for the sword, see FAQs above for the reasons why this probably doesn't make sense.

Grey

[gauze3539]

Grey.

I will be super happy if this was a solid gold, I see some copper color on the inner surface so I guess it is just a gold plated habaki. but thanks for the suggestion.

I will keep that in mind. Thanks.

 

Jason C.

[nagamaki - Franco]

One reason habaki become loose overtime is due to mishandling, in particular when placing the sword back together excessive force is used to reseat the tsuka, which in turn drives the habaki farther on to the sword than it should be, which then spreads the habaki apart resulting in looseness.

A solid gold habaki can be melted and reformed into the new habaki as long as the pureness of the gold is correct.

[Brian]

This isn't a solid gold habaki.

The OP was assuming that the habaki wasn't changed when the polish was done because maybe they wanted to save the habaki because maybe it was gold.

That is a bit far fetched. The real reason is probably for the same one that many swords don't have a new habaki made when being polished...to save money. Often the owner will know someone who can offer a cheaper polish, and the work is done to increase the selling price. Therefore it makes no sense to spend extra money on a new habaki.

Did you buy this from an old collector, an estate or out of Japan? Since you say the nakago is much thicker than the blade at the machi...then yes, it was polished down and the habaki will be a bit loose.

Good habaki-shi know how to make a habaki that won't rattle too much, but there will always be some play if you want to be able to remove it at some point.

Don't assume that the blade was beefy and heavy once. There is a lot that goes into the smithing of a sword, and 2 swords that look the same length and width can feel very different. Lighter swords don't make them polished down. Some swords just feel that way, whereas others feel like a monster chopper when you pick them up. High-shinogi/low-shinogi and width of mune etc can make a huge difference.

Enjoy your sword. Looks good from what we can see. What does the origami say about it?

 

Brian

[hxv]

1. Who would be the best person to go and let them do a new habaki job and shirasaya together in Sothern California? I am considering either one of two types from solid gold or solid silver.

 

As suggested, Brian Tschernega would be a good choice. John Tirado is another good choice. Pure silver habaki will cost around $500. As for gold, at close to $1000/ounce, a pure gold habaki might cost $1500-$2000.

 

 

2. When you get nihonto, do you usually make it fully funtional in battle field, or just enjoying it with shirasaya only? I am looking to purchase all fittings and make full koshirae with this sword. How

do you usually do when you get above Hozon Token.

 

It all depends. Some people don't mind storing a blade in shirasaya. It really is up to the collector's individual choices. Grey's reading suggestion is an excellent place to start.

 

 

3. If you have full battle koshirae mount, do you really cut tameshigiri with those of tokens which are above Hozon, or those are really for only looking and preservation with fine care as the literal

meaning " HOZON TOKEN ? Maybe hell no no no and I guess the whole purpose of existence of NBTHK is to prevent nihonto from meaningless abuses.?

 

If you decide to do tameshigiri with your sword, the first cut will cost about $3000 - the cost of a polish.

 

4. Even if an artisan make a new habaki that completely fits to the polished blade, would that even possible to remove it from the blade? How would that even be scientifically possible? I must

able to put new habaki for new koshirae.

 

Habaki fits by compression. This is what Brian Tschernega told me.

 

5. In general, could a single nihonto blade never be able to have perfect habaki fits because of substantial polishing work?

 

Unless your sword was in terrible shape, a polish should not remove that much metal, and a habaki that fits before the polish should still fit after the polish.

 

 

6. Is there any recommend - able solid gold habaki maker in the US based on your real experience your nihonto. ( Fred Lohmann and Michael Bell etc.)

 

See item #1 above.

 

7. When you get a nihonto in shirasaya, Do you look for all fitting accessories from similar period and same province that blade has forged and go for full koshirae? or Are you satisfy with just shirasaya -ed blade if you have no worries on the financial part?

 

See Grey's suggestion for reading.

 

Regards,

Hoanh

[Ken-Hawaii]

Well said, Hoanh.

 

Ken

[hxv]

Thank you Ken.

 

Hoanh

[Dr Fox]

Jason

 

Please correct me if I am wrong here, but it looks like the sword, has been stood, propped against some sort of chair! If this is the case then this is a dangerous situation to place yourself! Should that blade slip and fall your instinctive reaction will be to catch the blade, it could result in serious injury to yourself or others.

The proper presentation of swords for photography, can be seen on this board.

 

Also allowing your blade to contact material, that is not for blade cleaning, can cause damage to the surface finish.

 

As advice not criticism.

[Pete Klein]

I had a conversation with Brian last summer about solid gold habaki. With gold now trading at $1240 (London Spot this AM) depending upon the size and design complexity, single or double habaki, try approximately $3000 - $4000.

[Marius]

I second Dr. Fox here.

 

First, learn about word etiquette, so that you don't hurt yourself, someone else or damage the sword:

 

http://www.nbthk-ab.org/Etiquette.htm

 

and:

 

 

And please, don't uchiko. First, you might buy some cheap substitute, second, you might apply too much force and scratch the blade. A micro fibre cloth and some machine/choji oil will suffice.

[gauze3539]

I had a conversation with Brian last summer about solid gold habaki. With gold now trading at $1240 (London Spot this AM) depending upon the size and design complexity, single or double habaki, try approximately $3000 - $4000.

 

 

Thanks a lot. I may able to provide my gold but I am not sure if the those habaki - shi wants to do that. I don't really see the point to go to that "high-price" for this. A solid gold habaki option should

be on somehow above Tokuho level. I think that's is just right setting. Just imagine a beginner golfer does not bring high end expensive clubs and bags. 3~4k price just give me a clear idea. I would rather buy a nice wakizashi with that money. Thus, now I decided I will go this blade with either gold foil one or solid silver. Thanks.

 

Jason C.

[gauze3539]

I second Dr. Fox here.

 

First, learn about word etiquette, so that you don't hurt yourself, someone else or damage the sword:

 

http://www.nbthk-ab.org/Etiquette.htm

 

and:

 

 

And please, don't uchiko. First, you might buy some cheap substitute, second, you might apply too much force and scratch the blade. A micro fibre cloth and some machine/choji oil will suffice.

 

 

Thanks a lot. That's the most important thing I should know. I think no no microfiber because I remembered it make micro scratches on my german dagger. I will be careful and careful when I

try it first time. Thanks.

 

Jason C

[gauze3539]

This isn't a solid gold habaki.

The OP was assuming that the habaki wasn't changed when the polish was done because maybe they wanted to save the habaki because maybe it was gold.

That is a bit far fetched. The real reason is probably for the same one that many swords don't have a new habaki made when being polished...to save money. Often the owner will know someone who can offer a cheaper polish, and the work is done to increase the selling price. Therefore it makes no sense to spend extra money on a new habaki.

Did you buy this from an old collector, an estate or out of Japan? Since you say the nakago is much thicker than the blade at the machi...then yes, it was polished down and the habaki will be a bit loose.

Good habaki-shi know how to make a habaki that won't rattle too much, but there will always be some play if you want to be able to remove it at some point.

Don't assume that the blade was beefy and heavy once. There is a lot that goes into the smithing of a sword, and 2 swords that look the same length and width can feel very different. Lighter swords don't make them polished down. Some swords just feel that way, whereas others feel like a monster chopper when you pick them up. High-shinogi/low-shinogi and width of mune etc can make a huge difference.

Enjoy your sword. Looks good from what we can see. What does the origami say about it?

 

Brian

 

 

Thanks Brian. Your answer pretty much gives me a good amount of idea to know what's going on now. I guess you're right that the previous owner just has wanted to save money by not making neither new habaki, nor new shirasaya. The thick paper board works well right now and I would get a new habaki and shiriasaya for my first babe. That's good and correct guess Brian. I got this from an art furniture dealer who sometimes bring those estate stuffs from the local in San Diego. The dealer seems to selling it as consignment but that's the only thing I can say about. He seems to be knowledgeable for Japanese sword as well since he was mentioning such words " Hamon is nice..... has origami...... origami helped me a lot easier....." Well. he might have done some research about Japanese sword in order to sell it. In here, more the furniture dealer no nothing about nihonto, I would have better future chance for any unknown luck. Also, I personally prefer super heavy chopper feeling that this blade does not have but I still love my sword. Let's see what origami says.... Thanks Brian.

 

Jason C

[gauze3539]

Thanks Hoanh always. I really got a good idea now what further process I would do from your all individualized detailed answers. I will not spend too much money on accessories.

however, I am going to get some nice looking accessories. ( dragon theme like a man and either blue or tetsu silk ito). I will keep posting any progress here. I saw you live in nice

Huntington beach and I might should go down there, meet you up, see and learn some your nice collections.

 

Jason C

[gauze3539]

One reason habaki become loose overtime is due to mishandling, in particular when placing the sword back together excessive force is used to reseat the tsuka, which in turn drives the habaki farther on to the sword than it should be, which then spreads the habaki apart resulting in looseness.

A solid gold habaki can be melted and reformed into the new habaki as long as the pureness of the gold is correct.

 

 

Hi Franco. I agree with you. I imagine,,,, loosened habaki would take place in 99% when it's mishandled, misplaced, and the sword got mis-drawn-cut from any wrong angling, posturing and so on.

Since the solid gold option is a bit pricey, I will go for solid silver since I am maniac for the sterling silver. lol. Thanks.

 

Jason C

[nagamaki - Franco]

A properly made habaki will have zero play, and in fact it will take steady increasing pressure until you reach the point where it releases.

 

Current pricing for solid gold habaki thru Brian Tschernega is; $800 to $1000 for labor depending upon one or two piece, plus the current market price (which today 12/2/2013 is ~$1220.00) for the gold. It takes approximately 1 oz. to make a habaki.

 

Below is an image of a solid two piece habaki that Brian Tschernega re-made using the previous solid gold habaki by melting it down.

 

 

[cabowen]

Thanks for posting that photo Franco. I am always impressed by Brian's work-truly a gifted artisan.

[gauze3539]

Jason

 

Please correct me if I am wrong here, but it looks like the sword, has been stood, propped against some sort of chair! If this is the case then this is a dangerous situation to place yourself! Should that blade slip and fall your instinctive reaction will be to catch the blade, it could result in serious injury to yourself or others.

The proper presentation of swords for photography, can be seen on this board.

 

Also allowing your blade to contact material, that is not for blade cleaning, can cause damage to the surface finish.

 

As advice not criticism.

 

 

 

Hi. Denis.

 

I will keep that word to the heart. I have maked sure it does not fall but accidents always happen when one think he or she makes sure something. I will never let it stand up like that for any reason. Thanks again.

 

Jason C

[gauze3539]

A properly made habaki will have zero play, and in fact it will take steady increasing pressure until you reach the point where it releases.

 

Current pricing for solid gold habaki thru Brian Tschernega is; $800 to $1000 for labor depending upon one or two piece, plus the current market price (which today 12/2/2013 is ~$1220.00) for the gold. It takes approximately 1 oz. to make a habaki.

 

Below is an image of a solid two piece habaki that Brian Tschernega re-made using the previous solid gold habaki by melting it down.

 

[attachment=0]IMG_6304.JPG[/attachment]

 

Wow that's true beauty. I will contact brian when I am ready to do it. Maximum 2-2.5k for one solid gold habaki

should be ok but 3-4 k is the amount makes me re-think.

 

Thanks a lot for showing your very nice habaki.

 

Jason C

[gauze3539]

I second Dr. Fox here.

 

First, learn about word etiquette, so that you don't hurt yourself, someone else or damage the sword:

 

http://www.nbthk-ab.org/Etiquette.htm

 

and:

 

 

And please, don't uchiko. First, you might buy some cheap substitute, second, you might apply too much force and scratch the blade. A micro fibre cloth and some machine/choji oil will suffice.

 

 

Thanks a lot Mariusz. It helped me everything to know what the beginner must remind.

Jason C

[nagamaki - Franco]

Thanks for posting that photo Franco. I am always impressed by Brian's work-truly a gifted artisan.

 

Welcome, yes, Brian is quite gifted and very dedicated to his work and nihonto.

[Jacques D.]

Hi,

 

If i were the owner of that sword, first, i will wonder if the sword deserves such a habaki.

[Dr Fox]

Jason

 

Very pleased you have taken note of some very serious points. Read again all you have been told on here, it is coming through that you are running before you can walk. There are dozens of things you should really know, before owning any cutting tool, but especially nihonto.

 

Precious metal habaki???? There are owners of blades costing many thousands, who not dream of anything so vulgar, less is more. Stop! enjoy what you have, spend the money on learning the way of the sword. You will not get any pleasure out of something you don't fully understand.

[nagamaki - Franco]

Precious metal habaki???? There are owners of blades costing many thousands, who not dream of anything so vulgar, less is more

 

Thank you for the insult Dr. Fox! Now, please explain? Vulgar? Vulgar in what sense?