Translation assistance

[AikiHughes]

Greetings and well wishes to all,

This is my first post on the message board. I hope it is not bad form to make a translation request so soon. I am excited for any help or insight that can be provided on the item in question. Thank you in advance for the time and consideration of those involved.

 

I am considering making my first purchase of what I believe (from my novice perspective) is a traditionally made blade. Before making such a purchase I would like to have a greater assurance of the blades authinticity and an understanding of the kanji inscribed in the tang. Though I have included photos, I will also include a "transcription" of the characters found on the tang; made by a friendly and helpful acquaintance of mine (a seven semester Japanese language student, now a few years out of school), in the hopes that they will help with the translation.

 

The blade is currently in gunto mountings. The blade is sharpened all the way to the collar. It was difficult to se the hamon or it's activity due to rust from fingerprints and the fade of the polish. Also, I failed to mark the dimensions of the blade when I had the chance.

 

If i can include any further information to be helpful please let me know and i will. Again, I thank you in advance. I know this is a difficult request. I have a great deal of respect for those willing to give their time and talents to further the knowledge and education of admirers like myself.

[mdiddy]

Welcome to the Board. It is hard to completely make out the signature based on the pictures, but I think the sword is by Suo Nagahiro. He worked into the Meiji period. The signature is long and better pictures would allow for a more detailed translation, but it is like somewhat similar to 'Suo no Kuni Junin Shinryushi Fujiwara Nagahiro'.

[Gabriel L]

Greetings and well wishes to all,

This is my first post on the message board.

Welcome! Per the forum rules please add your real name as a signature in your user control panel (first name & initial is fine).

I am considering making my first purchase of what I believe (from my novice perspective) is a traditionally made blade. Before making such a purchase I would like to have a greater assurance of the blades authinticity…

It is a genuine traditionally-made blade. As to whether the signature is authentic (i.e. if it is gimei or not), that is a separate issue.

and an understanding of the kanji inscribed in the tang. Though I have included photos, I will also include a "transcription" of the characters found on the tang; made by a friendly and helpful acquaintance of mine (a seven semester Japanese language student, now a few years out of school), in the hopes that they will help with the translation.

I’ll try to make sense of it but the included photo isn’t quite good enough to see the mei, and the transcription is a little scattered, so we’ll see…

…Again, I thank you in advance.

You’re welcome.

 

Oh, I see Matt has already contributed. To give you some context, “Suo no kuni junin Shinryushi Fujiwara Nagahiro” basically means “Shinryushi (family name ) Fujiwara (common honorary clan name for smiths) Nagahiro (art name), resident of Suo province.” EDIT: this is assuming that Matt's reading is correct, which is hard to say from the poor photos.

 

The date seems to be Meiji sannen nigatsu kichijitsu according to your friend’s transcript, which means a lucky day in the second month of the third year of Meiji (1870).

[cabowen]

Seems to say that it was made an auspicious day in February of the third year of Meiji on the left. The right side might be Suo no Kuni Yamaguchi ju Naoie (?), after which is impossible to even guess....

 

You need to take a close up of the real signature that is readable.

 

Is this an ebay item?

[AikiHughes]

I've found this item in a local antique shop. Acquired by the owner in an estate sale.

 

-Adam

[mdiddy]

after which is impossible to even guess....

 

Wrong. It's not impossible and it's not even guesswork when the answer is right there.

[cabowen]

Well excuuuuuuuse me! I wasn't aware that the photos could be enlarged by clicking on them, thus it was indeed impossible for me to guess from the handwritten scribbles.

 

But it seems we agree that better pictures would be helpful.

[AikiHughes]

Thank you all for your insight. I would obviously welcome any additional information. Your responses were much faster than I had expected, I am most grateful. As this is all the information I have to display I feel I am left with the decision to purchase. If I did so; after researching the information you have provided, it would be my intention to have the blade restored. I am just beginning to understand what an undertaking this is both in artistry and expenditure. I know I have given very little real information on the blade itself but would it be possible and/or appropriate to request the approximate value of the blade in its current condition? If I can provide further anecdotal information please let me know. Thank you again for all the great information you have already provided. Much thanks.

[mdiddy]

I wasn't aware that the photos could be enlarged by clicking on them

Posts: 4712

 

[cabowen]

You imply that all uploaded images are enlargeable. I haven't found that to be the case. As it is clear this simple mistake has greatly offended you, my apologies and best wishes for happier holidays.

[mdiddy]

You imply that all uploaded images are enlargeable. I haven't found that to be the case.

My experience is that images too large to be displayed are able to be downloaded and enlarged by clicking on the filename. You can discern these as they will have a paperclip next to the filename. Typically, as people download these images, you will see a count of how many times they have been downloaded. This can be a clue to let you know the file is downloadable, and thus enlargeable.

 

I am not greatly offended, I simply did not understand a simple mistake from someone with your level of knowledge and experience. Apology accepted and happy holidays to you too.

[Brian]

Matt,

All pics too big become links, and can be clicked to open them, as you stated. Chris knows that.

However, what is easy to miss is that BROWSERS then resize the opened images to fit a full page. And if you then click that pic...it opens the full image larger than one page. I bet that is what Chris missed, and is easy to do so as that little magnifying glass isn't obvious. It isn't a forum thing, it is browser based, and some don't even do it.

 

Ok...back to the topic please folks.

 

Brian

[cabowen]

As Brian explained...Again, sorry for overlooking this simple feature and for whatever else has caused you to overreact in such a hostile manner.

 

I see what you mean about the end of the year Brian!

[Brian]

I hate having to delete every second post towards this time of the year.

But Chris, you also need to be able to read a joke and take it lightly. We have all been here soooo long, I read Matt's comments like 2 guys in the bar joking with each other and having some fun. I didn't see any deliberate offense meant.

We all need to start reading posts in the same way we would take them around a bar table after a few beers.

C'mon guys...lighten up!

 

Don't know any other forum that has to keep posting stuff like this in public. But we really are more informal.

 

Brian

[Gabriel L]

Back on-topic…

 

Here is the best I could do to un-distort and enhance the nakago photo:

 

 

With this I can say more specifically that it seems to say the following:

 

周防國山口住 真龍子 謹? 藤原永弘鍛

 

Suō kuni Yamaguchi jū (Shinryūshi?) kin (?) Fujiwara Nagahiro kitau

Suō province Yamaguchi resident (Shinryūshi?) careful/respectful [something] Fujiwara Nagahiro forged

 

Obviously I am not sure of several characters, in particular the second character of the putative "Shinryūshi" doesn't match and I'm not sure about the "kin-?" following it. Please treat this as a candidate translation, not the final word.

 

Nagahiro (永弘), Keiō (慶応, 1865-1868), Suō – „Chōshū Hagi-jū Nagahiro“ (長州萩住永弘), „Nagato no Kuni-jūnin Fujita Shinryūshi Minamoto Nagahiro“ (長門国住人藤田真龍子源永弘), „Suō no Kuni-jū Nagahiro kintan“ (周防国住永弘謹鍛, „respectfully forged by Nagahiro from Suō province“), „Suō no Kuni-jūnin Shinryūshi Fujiwara Nagahiro saku“ (周防国住人真龍子藤原永弘作), civilian name „Fujita Tokujirō“ (藤田徳次郎), he changed his first name later to „Kengo“ (兼吾), gō „Shinryūshi“ (真龍子), student of the 1st gen. Yokoyama Kaga no Suke Sukenaga (加賀介祐永), he lived first in Chōshū ́s Hagi (萩) but moved later to Yamaguchi (山口) to Suō province, he died on the sixth day of the sixth month Meiji twelve (明治, 1879), dense ko-itame with ji-nie, also an ō-itame with chikei all over the blade which appears as large-structured so-called „yakumo-hada“ (八雲肌), the hamon is a gunome-chōji-midare, gunome or suguha in ko-nie-deki with a compact nioiguchi, but alos an ō-gunome-midare with ara-nie is found, many blades show horimono, especially of a characteristic dragon, sometimes he also signed with an additional koku ́in, we know date signatures from the first year of Man ́en (万延, 1860) to the fifth year of Meiji (1872)

 

Adam, this Nagahiro is rated above average and is moderately valuable, and gimei (false signatures) do exist. These photos are not really good enough to assess if the signature is correct or not, especially since the workmanship of the blade is crucial in making such a judgment. Even with better photos however it would probably have to go to shinsa (professional appraisal) for a definitive assessment of the authenticity.

 

We can advise you on restoration, but it is expensive (several thousand dollars) and you assume a lot of risk, e.g. if it turns out to be gimei (false signature). There's a chicken-and-egg problem in that it ideally should be in good polish for shinsa, but you don't know whether to spend so much money without shinsa. Value of the blade depends very strongly on quality of the workmanship and authenticity of the signature, so we can't really tell you how valuable it is in its current condition, at least not based on these photos.

 

Best case, it's in good enough polish that it can go to shinsa, then you decide if you want to restore it. We await further photos. :-)

 

Regards,

 

—GLL

[cabowen]

I think this is it:

 

周防國山口住真龍子謙吾藤原永弘鍛之

[Gabriel L]

I think this is it:

 

周防國山口住真龍子謙吾藤原永弘鍛之

 

Kengo! It was even in Markus's entry, but I missed it. :lol: I'd buy that interpretation, thanks Chris. Also I somehow missed the "kore" at the end. Need new glasses I guess.

 

EDIT: Adam, that makes it:

 

Suō kuni Yamaguchi jū Shinryūshi Kengo Fujiwara Nagahiro kitau kore

"Suō province Yamaguchi resident Shinryūshi Kengo Fujiwara Nagahiro forged this"

[cabowen]

Most welcome...Glad to be able to add something of substance to the thread.

[AikiHughes]

Thanks again for all of your help and insight! I have been highly impressed by the level of knowledge and skill held by those who have commented on this post. I am truly grateful for this information and very excited to learn more.

 

I've included some photos of the mountings in the hopes if will provide further information on the blade. Granted, they are limited, but I hope they can be useful for examining. I have been reading about gunto mounts and believe that is what I'm seeing, and I wonder:

 

Is it plausible to assume that the blade was remounted for a soldier or is it more likely that these are the original fittings? Additionally, if the mountings are as old as the date indicated on the blade, would they be considered to be in "good" condition?

 

I look forward to learning more about this blade, and again, am so thankful for the selfless help thus far.

[cabowen]

These are not standard issue WWII gunto koshirae but are retrofitted traditional samurai koshirae for use in WWII. They look to be of utilitarian grade.