UK Sword Ban

[Guest nickn]

i spoke to a customs officer today as their "expert" had not phoned me back. i was told i must provide documentary proof of the swords ages, apart from sending a sword to shinsa how can you get proof of a swords age??? ,as it was not possible for a customs officer to tell the differece between a new chinese copy and an original old Japanese sword. then i pointed out that one of the swords at 38 cm was not covered by the ban so the officer said he would send someone to open the parcel and measure the blade but if i could send proof of its age as well that would help with their decision!.

so they do not even open parcels before confiscating items and are making up their own rule regarding what has been baned and what has not

HELP

[pcfarrar]

i spoke to a customs officer today as their "expert" had not phoned me back. i was told i must provide documentary proof of the swords ages, apart from sending a sword to shinsa how can you get proof of a swords age??? ,as it was not possible for a customs officer to tell the differece between a new chinese copy and an original old Japanese sword. then i pointed out that one of the swords at 38 cm was not covered by the ban so the officer said he would send someone to open the parcel and measure the blade but if i could send proof of its age as well that would help with their decision!.

so they do not even open parcels before confiscating items and are making up their own rule regarding what has been baned and what has not

HELP

 

If your a member of the Northern Token Society or GB Token Society then there will be people who can help you with authentication.

 

If you are not a member of any society then I recommend writing customs a letter stating clearly your reasons why the sword is over 100 years old/of Japanese manufacture.

 

Customs should have x-rayed the package so they should clearly be able to tell the length of the sword without opening it.

[Brian]

Oh dear, you are hitting the brick wall that I hit repeatedly. "Prove to us it is antique, but we have the right to not accept anything you offer, and not tell you where to get the proof"

 

I think you are going to see more and more of that. It is much easier for them to deny it and make you bend over backwards (or forwards in these cases) to prove it, than let something through and risk a potential legal issue.

This is what happens when there is no specific procedure and the individuals can interpret it as they like.

 

I will quote Ian B from a previous post:

have also been reading the act and although I am no lawyer, para 6 is reasonably clear since it states that for paras 3 & 4 (collectors and martial arts practitioners etc) ... a person shall be taken to have shown a matter specified in those paragraphs if -

a) sufficient evidence of that matter is adduced to raise an issue with respect to it; and

b) the contrary is not proved beyond a reasonable doubt.

 

Now this suggests to me that if you do offer evidence that a sword is old, they have then to prove it isn't. I suppose the word 'sufficient' might be a sticking point but you will have raised an issue. They then have the onus put on them to prove it isnt old.

I suggest getting a letter from the seller saying he has been dealing in antique swords for X number of years, and this is indeed an antique. Then I suggest you show them paragraph 6 and tell them they have to prove it isn't. Either way, it is going to be a bit of a battle for swords without origami.

I am sure the Token Societies can assist, but if they are like here, then that will incur a fee for their time and effort, which is reasonable, but adds expense.

 

I am sure the UK collectors here will assist you in any way they can, and good luck.

 

Brian

[Guest nickn]

the customs officer told me they had 103 detained swords whos owners said were ban exempt

he was not very happy with the governments knee jerk reaction over swords and plastic toy guns these he said had trebled his offices work load

[pcfarrar]

As I've mentioned previously it's advisable to use Fedex or UPS for shipping swords into the UK now. It will save a lot of hassle with customs. Fedex and UPS consignments do not go through the same customs procedure as Parcelforce and if you have problems in customs they are dealt with quickly.

[Guest nickn]

a katana from the us got through today but i will take peters advice and use a courier in future

[IanB]

Nick, A letter from the seller seems to be the way for you to move forward. If nothing else it will raise an 'issue' which then puts the onus on them to prove it is a replica. Since they do not appear to have anyone qualified to decide what is a replica it puts them in a pickle. If it is any consolation, I'm in the same boat as you, having a wakizashi sitting there with, I think ,a 17" blade. Clearly they are not bothering to measure the blades, just detaining everything in case they slip up. Since I haven't seen the sword, only photographs, I can only state that it is my 'opinion' that it is old even though I know it is - I wouldn't have bought it if I didn't think that.

 

I'm not sure how they would react to an endorsement from the ToKen or Northern ToKen. I doubt they have heard of either organisation and again it could only be an opinion based on photographs. They do want is a piece of paper that they can put in the file. I did get a katana through without too much hassle by quoting the seller, the fact that I had worked for the Royal Armouries and that I had published books. I'm trying it again with my wakizashi but the holiday will have disrupted the post so I don't know yet whether I need to send additional material.

 

If you still have trouble after a few more days email me.

Ian Bottomley

[Carlo Giuseppe Tacchini]

As I've mentioned previously it's advisable to use Fedex

 

Big Thumb up to support Peter's suggestion.

In Italy we've the same "Monty Python" situation by WWII (1940 if I'm not mistaken...) about sword legislation, but

importing with Fedex never gave me troubles. For now.

[Guest nickn]

thanks ian

i will phone them tuesday and see if they have bothered to measure the wakizashi blade

i spoke to royal mail and they are now saying the katana is only being held for customs charges and has not been detain

as i have not been officially notified that either sword has been seized there is not much i can do apart from phone them daily

i did mention the fact that the law states that police/customs have to prove my swords were not made before 1954 etc but the officer said that was not true so i guess they have not been given proper guide lines

[hybridfiat]

Sorry posted this in the wrong place.

[Henry Stewart]

When I have dealt with Kazushigae Tsuruta san of Aoi-Art in Tokyo,he with most of his swords also sends an Attestation sheet showing type and history and his signature. If you purchase anything from that scource,why not ask him to send you two sheets,by letter mail in advance of the sword, and submit one as a means of proof to customs.

 

Henry

[Kevin]

To add to the Monty Python situation, I note that the manufacturers of the swords that they were trying to ban have now got round it by retooling and selling straight 'samurai swords', specifically for the UK market. There's one guy on Ebay even points potential buyers of his "Kill Bill straight katanas" (about £80.00) to the Home Office site to demonstrate that they are legal. There are others going for about £50.00.

 

The upshot is that the swords they were trying to ban are now exempt from any legal restriction, and again multiplying rapidly, whilst the swords that were exempt from the ban are now the only swords to which it applies. :?

 

Now of course they could modify the law to cover 'straight and curved single-edged blades', but then of course they could still legally import them by making them 49.90 cm long, and thus under the 50cm legal limit. Either that or they make them double-edged - a "Kill Bill double-edged katana" anyone? In either straight or curved pattern?

 

All easily predicted - I did suggest in my comments in the consultation process that a) having a limit on length would make the shorter swords more popular b) that they were already making straight 'Japanese' swords (usually marked as "genuwine Ninja sword!!"). It should have been foreseen that there would be an adaptive response by manufacturers to the changed circumstances in order to maintain their existing market. They weren't going to simply go "Whoops! Well, that's it then!" and up sticks. Though I must admit admiring their chutzpah for driving a coach and horses through the spirit of the legislation.

 

I think the word for the resulting situation is 'fiasco'. With reference to the Minister concerned, Vernon Croaker, I might also drop words like 'incompetent', 'addle-pated', 'short-sighted' and 'wazack' into the pot as well.

 

Kevin

[Kevin]

Oh, and following a chat with someone in the police, wakizashi are apparently more likely to be used than katana since the legislation came in. Well, makes sense - they're more easily concealed and there are no restrictions on them if they are under 50 cm. Which is what I predicted would happen to the ejit Minister if they introduced a length limit. :?

 

Kevin

[hybridfiat]

Call me cynical but you are all forgetting the first principle of politics is to APPEAR to do something whilst achieving nothing of the sort.

John Howard bless his cotton socks did that here in Australia when he instituted the gun buy backs.

It achieved his purpose which was to APPEAR to do something. As a firearm owner I benefited greatly from his initiative. I sold several old guns to the govt for very high prices and then turned around and bought more new guns that were not banned.

The illegal guns remained in the hands of their owners both law abiding and criminal and life went on.

[Jean]

you are all forgeting the first principle of politics is to APPEAR to do something whilst achieving nothing of the sort.

 

[Kevin]

Call me cynical but you are all forgetting the first principle of politics is to APPEAR to do something whilst achieving nothing of the sort.

 

The problem is that our lot think that they are doing something useful, when in fact they are, at best, rearranging deckchairs on the Titanic and, at worst, heading entirely in the wrong direction. Quite a few of them - and the senior civil servants they work with - don't seem, from personal observation, to even live on the same planet as the rest of us. If they did then, to choose one minor example, the Prison Service would not have come up with the idea of having DOMS heading up its offender management programme. Leastways, not with a straight face and looking puzzled when other folks fell around laughing. :lol: Yup, each area is to have a DOM to manage its offenders. Presumably they're bringing back the birch . . . :-)

 

Somebody had to stand up in Parliament and announce that. :-) Presumably it wasn't greeted with large amounts of mirth because the audience consisted of 3 MPs, two of whom were asleep and the 3rd was bored out of his or her skull. In short, the usual level of attendance for most sessions.

 

Kevin

[Jean]

because the audience consisted of 3 MPs, two of whom were asleep and the 3rd was bored out of his or her skull. In short, the usual level of attendance for most sessions

 

You must be mistaking with French Assemblée Nationale