UK Sword Ban

[Brian]

Yep..it is in the implementation and regulations that you will see all the nasty aspect appear. That is where they throw in limitations that make life difficult, as seen here in SA.

I expect you are going to find it extremely difficult to import and export swords, and will have to jump through hoops. Luckily you have groups working for your best interests..without them all would be lost.

 

My comments about a spy are a bit misleading. But you definitely have someone or a group posing as a "Collectors & Re-enactors Organisation" (let's call them C&RG for short)

 

As an example: the question Should curved, single edged swords (sometimes known as “samurai swords”) be added to the Offensive Weapons Order? - One C&RG says yes..the rest no.

 

The question: Do you agree with the defi nition as suggested and should there also be a minimum length of blade for the weapon?

One C&RG votes yes.

 

The question: Should there be any exemptions for genuine Japanese swords?

One C&RG votes No ??!

 

The question: Should there be an exemption for martial arts practitioners?

One C&RG votes No.

 

The question: Are there any exceptions, exemptions or defences in respect of existing offensive weapons which should be added?

One C&RG votes No

 

Notice a pattern? I fail to see any logic there at all, unless the supposed group is actually an anti-organisation posing as a C&RG...or they should be closed down. They are not acting in the interests of any supposed members they may have.

 

Just pointing it out. Would love to know who they are.

 

Brian

[Gabriel L]

This is all assuming that the same C&RG posted all those answers. Technically there's no proof of that. But it does seem far more likely than not... and very weird.

[IanB]

Brian,

There have been an abnormal number of killings with knives and guns amongst rival gangs here in the UK. Many years ago when I was a lecturer in further education I noticed a lot of young men of immigrant parents who had been born and brought up here suddenly start talking with West Indian accents. Now they have imported the gang culture. Carrying knives and guns is 'cool' and in some cases, a shooting or stabbing is the mode of initiation.

 

In reaction to this state of affairs, very vocal pressure groups have been formed by grieving parents and the like who think the answer is to ban anything that can be used as a weapon. Hence the ban on handguns following a mass shooting and now swords. I am more than sympathetic to their losses, it must be dreadful to lose a child who is often only an innocent passer by, but they are targetting the wrong thing. The problem lies with the kids who are basically feral.

 

Ian

[Henry Stewart]

To Ian B.

 

Rather difficult to allocate titles when corresponding neath cover of pseudonyms isnt it?

However I agree with what you say,although this is nothing new. I remember from yesteryear as a beat 'bobby' ,the local teddy boys on my patch all wore their uniform and a good proportion carried italian style 'flick knives' Italian stilletto spring loaded,button operated things rigid, with 6 to 7 inch blades.

I knew that some of them had them and they knew I was aware of the fact and they were very careful when I was around or anyone who might contact me. They also knew that anything untoward no matter how slight would mean serious trouble for them. I knew their parents,relatives and where they all lived,any stranger being spotted instantly.But there was a mutual respect,built up over years.Its no good saying law enforcement deserves respect; respect is earned and with it comes trust.

No gun or edged weapon ever killed anyone,as you infer its the person behind it.

The Home Office and its various agencies need to get their act together over drugs and the American style gang culture thats come with it. Banning in this country and others has been clearly seen to have no effect at all,in fact has exacerbated the problem it sought to handle.

[IanB]

Henry,

You have really hit the nail squarely on the head. Our hard-working, overstretched and omnipotent leaders go to all the trouble and effort, without waiting to be asked, to ban things and pass laws against various behaviours - and what do the crooks do just ignore them. Is there no gratitude left.

 

Ian

[IanB]

Henry,

It has just dawned on me what you mean and that you do not know my name. I have never had any intention of writing under a pseudonym, it just never occurred to me. For the record the name is Ian Bottomley, Chairman of the Northern ToKen Society and until September, Senior Curator of Oriental Arms and Armour at the Royal Armouries in Leeds.

Sorry about the unintended oversight.

 

Ian

[Henry Stewart]

Ian

 

Sorry ,no offence intended; just call it a 'senior moment'. It was the Ian.B. that threw me.Whilst I'm on would you or indeed any other have any idea what the Conservative Party 'take' on this issue is. Lets face it this whole thing has more to do with politics than facts,most of which they've got skewed anyway. Perhaps you may be of the opinion that a few letters might help our hardworking representatives come out into the open with a few 'transparent opinions'.

[Splidge]

I have to wonder if in this new legislation there will be mention of other large curved swords, e.g.: used for arguments sake within a religion or would they not mention these in case they upset the minorities again?

Would this also effect the people who perform national dances e.g.: the Scott’s, Turkish, etc.

I have to ask then what about the large collections that are held and are in public view in castles, and museums from every nationality in the world, where these might be said to be cultural heritage, so then might be argued are the items held in private collections.

As has already been said it is not the weapon that kills but the person behind it, and if some one is determined to commit a crime with what ever weapon they choose then no amount of law will stop that person from getting what they need and carrying out their intentions, don’t forget there is no such thing as “ total security†there is always away around it. This has already been proved by this government by allowing 11000 illegal immigrants into varying security jobs in this country.

Just my thoughts.

[Brian]

As far as I understand it, no other swords or edged weapons are included at this stage, but will be looked at in the future.

 

My one fear is that when the very next incident occurs with a "samurai sword" they will not turn around and say "we were wrong, the ban has no effect" but will instead say "see?..we were right. There were too many exemptions and the laws were not strict enough"

Bound to happen.

 

But anyways....

In this forum, we are preaching to the converted

 

Brian

[w.y.chan]

Hi Ian,

Please to know you are well again, wellcome back.

[IanB]

All,

I have aready pointed out to the Home Office that if they persist in using the term 'samurai sword' any barrister will shred the prosecution since it is effectively meaningless. I have also pointed out that the definitions they keep coming up with apply to just about every cavalry sword ever made anywhere. I thing they have taken it on board since they are talking about a meeting.

 

What worries me more is the question of carrying a sword in a public place. As the law stands now you cannot legally take a sword out of your home and take it anywhere. Equally you cannot buy a sword in auction since it cannot be taken to the auction rooms, which themselves might be construde as a public place, nor could you take it away if you bought it. We know what is meant by the law, it just hasn't been thought through.

 

Ian

[w.y.chan]

Hi All,

The issue of race and immigration has been brought up. I am not talking about knives or guns but out of the handful of crimes committed by replica samurai swords how many of these are committed by immigrants and ethnic minorities?

[paulb]

Dear Chan,

As you probably know the number of crimes committed with swords of any type is very low. I think the BBC's last report quoted 80 in the past 3 years. I did the calculations when this first started and it was something like 0.001% of reported violent crime.

At no time in any of the correspondence, reports or meetings I attended was the issue of race or ethnic background discussed. The overall feeling was that crimes involving any form of edged weqpon and indeed firearms was more common amongst the disadvantaged groups within UKs multi ethnic society. Certainly the ratio of gun crime resulting in murder or grievous bodily harm carried out by members of Afro-Carribean and Eastern European communities within London was far greater than the percentage population would predict. I would suggest this has much more to do with Environment than ethnic origin.

With regard to the specific question about any attacks by members of ethnic communities using swords, as far as I remember there was one very high profile case when an Afro-Carribean man with a history of mental illness walked in to a church naked except for a replica Katana. He proceeded to attacked the congregation but was eventually disarmed by a policeman using an organ pipe as a makeshift weapon.

In all other cases the racial origin of the criminals was not specified.

 

This is not a race issue. As has been said here and in many other areas, this ban will do nothing to reduce crime (as quoted by the ACPO) what is needed is initiatives to address the causes of the problem that make young people feel they need to carry and use any weapon or do damage to others.

regards

Paul

[w.y.chan]

Dear Paul,

 

Thankyou for your time in posting. If I recall there was one other case involving a brother of a well known black athlete who was arrested for using a replica samurai sword a few years ago. The police argues that "Samurai swords" is fast becomming a weapons of choice for gangs, possibly implying a particular ethnic group though did not emphasise which. I find that an overstatement based on at least what the gutter press had gleefully reported, some of these crimes involving these immitation swords were mostly committed by whites, not always necessary under 21 or involves robbery, mostly were mental disorder, domestic violence, suicide. Crimes that may have still occured regardless if a sword is involved and certainly across all racial, social and even gender divide. The last case reported involving so call samurai sword attack the assailent was a woman in a domestic dispute.

As far as immitation swords is concerned I think this idea of a gang culture is a bit of sensationalist reporting by the police picking on a soft target.

[Guest reinhard]

The cultural heritage of Japanese (art) swords has become the victim of its popular myth as a weapon. This happened before (end of WWII) and it will happen again. According to political and social circumstances this will go on for ever. Hysteria will substitute reason and vice versa (we seem to be far from an evolutionary step by now). All we can do is explain and explain and....to those, who are ready to listen. Until the next "Kill Bill"-movie sets our efforts back again.

 

We will always be a minority and have to be be more persistent than "the rest".

 

reinhard

[IanB]

All,

Finally a snippet of news on the proposed legislation. Yesterday, Sunday, a television show called 'The Politics Show' did a feature on the proposed ban. This was only broadcast in the West Midlands area so many of you may not have seen it. It was fairly brief and the reporter was at least sympathetic - making the point several times that it was rather 'knee jerk' and about as enforcable as the 'Dangerous dogs' legislation that was brought out. Various politicians appeared making sound bites about 'the public are demanding this legislation' and 'the police are demanding it' and so on but at least they did conceed that collectors and martial art practioners would be exempt. Clive Sinclair was shown briefly with some of his collection to put our case - many thanks to him for that. We were ensured that the police would be able to distinquish real from replica but the slightly disturbing aspect was that the idea of certification was mentioned. This idea had been ruled out in talks with Home Office officials. So we are no further forward in reality but things do seem to be going in our direction.

 

Ian Bottomley

[paulb]

All,

the long awaited amendment to the offensive weapons act was put before both houses of Parliament yesterday. The final document is much diluted and still, I think , unworkable. In summary the act does not now use the term "Samurai sword" it effectively bans any curved single edged weapon with a blade length greater than 50CM. Defences against potential prosecution include:

1. The sword was made in Japan prior to 1954

2 the sword was made in Japan at any other time using traditional methods.

3. Justified usage of the blade for re-enactment or sporting activity.

With regard to other non Japanese swords, cavalry sabres etc The vast majority of these are covered by the existing exemptions which include any antique weapon over one hundred years old.

As has often been said before this is an almost unworkable document which has been drawn up to respond to headlines in Newspapers rather than eliminate violent crime. All parties involved are aware of this but once the government had decided to do it all that could be done was to try and mininse the damage. I think all involved have achieved this. Very many individuals and groups worked hard to prtect our interests over a long period of time. I think they all did an exceptinal job and at least for the moment have ensured we can continue to collect and participate in martial arts within England Wales and Northern Ireland (Scotland have introduced their own legislation)

Thanks to all involved.

[Jean]

Paul,

 

I am glad everything turn out well for GB Nihonto owners :D :D

 

On another hand, my hope I could get at ridiculous prices very valuable swords from England has just vanished

[Jez]

Hi Paul,

Thank you for the information. I wonder if you could direct us to an official web site or press release? I tried the Homeoffice web site but couldn't find anything new also tried google but still nothing new.

 

Cheers

Jez

[pcfarrar]

There is a scan of the document here:

 

http://www.to-ken.com/membersarea/Clivesreport.htm

[Kane]

With regard to other non Japanese swords, cavalry sabres etc The vast majority of these are covered by the existing exemptions which include any antique weapon over one hundred years old.

 

 

I haven't been able to find any official info that says antiques are exempt from this - do you have a link or a document name?

Cheers

[paulb]

There is nothing in the added revision that refers to antiques. Please remember this is an addition to existing legislation, the offensive weapons act of 1988. This act specifies that antiques over 100 years old are exempt from the act.

I double checked this with the Home Office who confirmed that antique non-Japanese blades were covered by this existing exemption.

regards

paul

[Kane]

There is nothing in the added revision that refers to antiques. Please remember this is an addition to existing legislation, the offensive weapons act of 1988. This act specifies that antiques over 100 years old are exempt from the act.

I double checked this with the Home Office who confirmed that antique non-Japanese blades were covered by this existing exemption.

regards

paul

 

 

Well that's a bit of positive news at least - thanks for the update Paul

[Jez]

Hi all,

I'm sure you know this http://www.opsi.gov.uk/si/si2008/draft/ukdsi_9780110810324_en_1 is the governments official release of the "The Criminal Justice Act 1988 (Offensive Weapons)(Amendment) Order 2008". Nothing new here, just the same as the photocopied link given by pcfarrar above.

 

Paragraph 4 gives a defence for organisations holding relevant insurance.

4. It shall be a defence for a person charged—

 

(a) with an offence under section 141(1) of the Criminal Justice Act 1988; or

(b) with an offence under section 50(2) or (3) of the Customs and Excise Management Act 1979,

in respect of any conduct of his relating to a weapon to which section 141 of the Criminal Justice Act 1988 applies by virtue of paragraph 1® to show that his conduct was for the purpose only of making the weapon available for the purposes of the organisation and holding of a permitted activity for which public liability insurance is held in relation to liabilities to third parties arising from or in connection with the organisation and holding of such an activity.

 

 

O.K. I've been training with weapons insurance for the past ten years or so. This will cover most weapons of wood or metal construction BUT this does not cover "live blades".

 

Can anyone tell me where I can get the relevant club insurance required?

 

Jez

[hybridfiat]

The saddest part of this whole sorry affair is that the legislation is not intended to stop the violence.

It is a cynical action by the legislators to "appear" as though they care and are doing something, without actually doing anything. The same happened here in Australia with our gun buyback.

It was well known at the time of the handgun ban that this would not have any impact on the use of guns in violent robberies and attacks. Nevertheless since the british govt knows , after being elected multitudinous times, the "great unwashed masses" have s#$t for brains and are easily duped.

[pcfarrar]

Has anyone in the UK tested the water yet by importing a sword?

[Thekirsh]

I just had a wakizashi listed on ebay removed and the only reason I can think of is I ticked the " will post to England box "

Could that be right ?

 

Simon

[pcfarrar]

Probably not, as ebay said the ban on sales was only for items listed in the UK. If ebay wanted to stop bidders in the UK buying swords they would just blanket block the sword categories like they do with WW2 stuff in France.

 

My first purchase post ban has just hit customs, should be interesting to see what happens.

[pcfarrar]

My first sword from the US post ban has cleared customs without any trouble.

 

It was described as an "antique sword over 150 years old" and using the harmonized tariff code on Darcy's import/export post.

 

So looks like buying swords from overseas won't be a problem still for UK collectors.

[Guest nickn]

i have had two swords detained by uk customs both properly described shinto katana and shinto wakizashi under 50 cm and both over 300 years old .i only found out as they were late arriving from the us so i rang customs and was told an "expert " will phone me. they have had the waki since the 28th of april and the katana since the 2nd of may it will be interesting to hear what there expert says