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Another one ruined ?

Shepherd
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Dr Fox Mentor

Dr Fox

Posted
Posted

Gentlemen I think it not unreasonable to apologise when one is wrong! The following submission I made on a recent post here, in view of this topic I concede I was wrong.

 

I apologise!

 

 

[i understand where you are, but to be fair, you or I, or any others with the knowledge we have, would not do as seen here. But we really are in a minority, when it comes to seeing art where others see an old sword! Damage and misuse is usually down to ignorance: shameful but as George said "it happens".]

seattle1 Experienced

seattle1

Posted
Posted

Hello:

Mr. Jorgensen's link to Tsuruta san's Aoi-Art posting presents a rather disturbing document for a new collector to digest and act upon, because it is not written by an amateur or uninformed person. Tsuruta san runs a small shop in Tokyo that is well known to collectors in Japan and beyond as is Tsuruta himself. It sells some very excellent swords as well as modest swords at very reasonable prices, however the posting about do it yourself polishing is nothing less than inexplicable.

Most experienced collectors and groups of which they are members would tend to condemn such advice and practices. The skill required to polish a sword is very hard won, involves a long and demanding course of study under a professional polisher which provides not only the skills required to polish, but also the knowledge required to know just what they are polishing. Polishing is a reductive process and when gross errors are made, as they surely would be by an untrained beginner, the damage is fatal.

Yes, polishing is expensive as it almost always requires a new habaki and shirasaya as well. The training period is long and arduous, skilled practitioners are few, and the waiting periods can be long. If a sword is worth polishing, though many, probably the majority of swords in existence are not, it should be done by the best polisher one can find. To my knowledge there is only one polisher in the US who has had a full apprenticeship, and that is Jimmy Hayashi in San Francisco, however there are other excellent polishers in the US, Bob Benson most certainly, and I have seen fine work from several others who I would not hesitate to use. Each of these men has something no amateur has, and that is not just skill, but caution and conservatism in approach and an unwillingness to go beyond what is appropriate for the blade. Many westerners know Mishina Kenji in Japan, and his skills acquired under a National Treasure polisher, are also outstanding. There are other polishers not known personally to me, who would have similar skills and attitudes. For a rather lengthy discussion of Jimmy Hayashi's background, see Togishi Shigekazu Jimmy Hayashi: A Report and Interview in the JSS/US Newsletter, Vol.31, No. 4-5-6, 1999, pp.51-62. This is a big world and there are doubtless competent, but not untrained, polishers elsewhere, who can do good work. Perhaps other NMB Members could supply some names and experiences.

Arnold F.

bubba-san Collaborator

bubba-san

Posted
Posted
http://knifedogs.com/showthread.php?34060-Sword-by-Ichihari-Nagamitsu

 

 

another person who decided to "polish" their own sword. Ruined?

 

S.Shepherd

 

 

Mr Shepard knows nothing about togishi . We have a long history of not getting along .H

e follows me from site to site giving me problems . He is a young man who does not know anything about Japanese swords ,I have been polishing blades for 20 years

this blade was really badly scratched and yakote line was really off and kissaki was scratched.

I have always been courteous to all members here . Mr Shepard needs to get a life .

the polish was a kaji toji ( rough polish) I charged him 450.00 When the person got his sword back

he was very pleased and could not believe it was same sword . He did not pay for a full art polish.

the last picture posted is a jiro taro Naokatsu I polished . Mr Shepard is a trouble maker and he will cause problems for the site . sincerely James J Bieler

Bruno Mentor

Bruno

Posted
Posted
Bruno , you dont even know me . I have been forging and polishing swords and Japanese knives over 20 years .

 

James,

 

I maintain my position and believe nothing is more expensive than a cheap polish. Nothing personal really.

bubba-san Collaborator

bubba-san

Posted
Posted

I also maintain my position that you have not even seen the sword after the final polish .

so I take your words with a grain of salt . I am sorry you feel that way . what have I ever done to you to say such negative things . Would you like to see some of my work and swords I have polished ?

send me your email . I will quickley change your mind .. James

kusunokimasahige Grand Master

kusunokimasahige

Posted
Posted

Mr. Bubba,

 

Post your images here and let us all see what you do.

 

There are a lot of home polishers about and in general they destroy blades. There are only a few Togishi in the West who have been properly trained in Japan.

 

If you want the proof being in the pudding, show us the pudding.

 

KM

bubba-san Collaborator

bubba-san

Posted
Posted

Please look at my post at bottom of board index page. What type of pudding do you like ? respectfully James......... Ps I lived In Yokosuka for 11 years . After I was wounded in Vietnam I was sent to hospital

in Sasebo and I recouped for a few years ... I also polished this one ... and this one ! thank you james

kusunokimasahige Grand Master

kusunokimasahige

Posted
Posted

James, sorry to hear you were wounded in Country. You have my respect for the offers you brought.

 

There is however a difference between your polish, which i can call a foundation polish at best, and for instance this polish:

 

Komiya+Juka+Choji+Hamon.jpg

 

The idea behind polishing is not only to bring out the soul and characteristics of a blade but also to save it for future generations. Therefore these swords need to be properly cared for and not damaged or polished in the wrong way.

 

On this board no one advocates polishing swords yourself without proper training. For a reason.

 

Did I never put a stone to a blade ? Yes I did, using only hazuya and jizuya. And from what basically is an very out of polish and pitted blade it revealed what looks to me like a choji hamon. I then stopped and will not touch it again. Why ? Because a properly Japanese trained polisher is the only one who can polish it to reveal its true beauty. That will take time, and money.

 

KM

Shepherd Explorer

Shepherd

Posted
  • Author
Posted

All I can do is laugh, and I'm not going to bring other forum drama here as I enjoy this place. I'll let my reputation here speak for itself. My question was legitimate- Was this sword ruined ? Can something like this be repaired to what it should be, and would it's restoration cost more than if it had been polished by a recognized togi ?

 

To add, I received this; "Hey man , your little trip over to NMB backfired , They saw all my togishi work and I have 2 polishing jobs as a result ........... I will make about 4,000 big ones ... thanks buddy hahahahah "

 

Personally I'm of the opinion the nihonto should be polished by a legit polisher not only to keep it's value but more importantly to preserve it.

 

S.Shepherd

cabowen Grand Master

cabowen

Posted
Posted

This is a horse that has been beaten into burger....So why not have yet another whack....

 

Most people that have been into this for an extended period of time understand that polishing is an art in itself and that there is good reason to only entrust quality blades to fully trained, experienced, polishers. There is much more to it than simply making the blade shiny. One needs to be an expert at kantei as well to know exactly how to polish a sword. There are no kantei experts among the amateur polishers so this eliminates them as bona fide togi-shi from the get go.

 

I mean you no offense James as I have no doubt you are a skilled craftman. However, you are in over your head here with your amateur polishing of nihon-to. The fact that you think we can reasonably judge the quality of your work from photos tells me all I need to know. Just because you have been doing this for 50 years doesn't qualify you to polish collectible nihon-to.

 

I have no issue with people such as yourself working on low end gunto and the like, but blades on the level of Naokatsu shouldn't be touched by amateurs. There is only so much steel there and when too much is gone, game over. To say that polishing "isn't rocket science" belittles the years of training that professionals put in to master the art and betrays an ignorance of all that is involved. It really matters little how long you have been forging and polishing your own blades, or how long you have been "practicing" your polishing on old blades. It isn't an art that one learns on one's own and I shudder to think of old blades that served as your training fodder.

 

I am always puzzled by the logic of people who claim a respect and love of the Japanese sword, but think nothing of brushing off the nearly universal admonishment of those with a lifetime of experience and go right on grinding away. Is it love-hate? Pure hubris? :crazy: :dunno:

 

If you can make it to the Tampa show James, bring some of your work and I would be happy to have a first hand look. If it really is on the level of professional togi-shi, I would be happy to proclaim such here on this forum. Likewise, if it is poorly done I would hope you would reconsider working on old blades and stick to your own or low quality gunto.

  • Like 1
Brian

Brian

Posted
Posted

Chris echoes my sentiments, and the official policy of the forum. We do not advocate amateur or self taught polishing. That is not to say there aren't some good polishers that weren't trained in Japan, but we are not goint to start a list of who we consider ok, and who not, and there is far more involved than polishing. In fact, polishing is probably less than half the knowledge needed. Kantei and evaluation, knowing how to spot potential problems, knowing what the final steel colour should be, knowing how to close ware, and knowing the characteristics of the blade before you start are far more important.

So no....you are never going to get the forum to say "so and so's self taught polishing is ok..but avoid so-and-so."

Polishing like the one in this thread can be useful for modern Western blades, and Showato. Blades with little risk. But on older blades, preservation is more important than a pretty looking hamon.

That said...there is no need to "name and shame" anyone unless they are actively advertising for new work. And then, a simple mention is sufficient. We don't need pages covering what we already know.

Points made and noted. No further debate necessary.

 

Brian

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